F&I - Colonial Period Rifle question

[alex efremenko]

And if allowed, I will take lots of pictures :wink:

 

[Stophel]

I would love to see those pictures, thank you!

Let's just say though, that I'll believe it when I see it (maybe...). :haha: I've seen a lot of attributions based only on wishful thinking, and I have publicly said so. I'm definitely disliked by some because of it. :wink:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would love to see those pictures, thank you!

Let's just say though, that I'll believe it when I see it (maybe...). :haha: I've seen a lot of attributions based only on wishful thinking, and I have publicly said so. I'm definitely disliked by some because of it. :wink:

and admired by some because of it :thumbsup:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Please understand I am not trying to nitpick or argue. What accessories were needed with a rifle that were not needed with smoothbore guns of the period and most civilian smoothbores did not have patch boxes?

Gus

Patches. :wink:

ditto

 

[Artificer]

Please understand I am not trying to nitpick or argue. What accessories were needed with a rifle that were not needed with smoothbore guns of the period and most civilian smoothbores did not have patch boxes?

Gus

Patches. :wink:

ditto

:wink: OK, you two. I think I have it. Well, maybe. :rotf:

But that's the point, patches (even oiled or greased patches) could have been carried in the shoulder or belt pouch with the balls. Matter of fact, wasn't/isn't it easier to carry them there both then and today? Why go to the expense of making a "box" on the rifle for them?

Gus

 

[Stophel]

Beats me why! They just did. :wink: And, just like today, people liked nifty gizmos. The patchbox is a nifty gizmo.

I actually need to practice my patchbox use. I previously did not really use the patchbox for patches. But the more I have studied, the more I found that they actually did put patches in there and I would like to work out a good loading rhythm using the patchbox.

 

[Turtle Creek]

I think nifty gizmo works.
I've had a rifle w/PB but never used it for that purpose...easier/quicker/more fluid to reach in my bag.
Now as a place to carry some jags/ball puller ok.

 

[Stophel]

Some old German rifles are found with chunks of tow, worms and even powder measures in their boxes. I have seen one pictured with round patches and a few balls! So they did both.

There is one very interesting American rifle with a wooden patchbox that has funky looking chunks of yellowish stuff in the box, which we GUESS might be the dried up remnants of grease (used like the "tallow hole" on later Tennessee rifles??????) :idunno:

The Brass barreled "Deshler" rifle (cherry stocked, 1760's-1770's Lehigh area) has a brass box with about 8, I guess, round holes in the bottom of the box, just the right size to hold a pre-patched ball!!! It is not known for sure that this is what the holes were actually for, but it is good logical conjecture.

 

[J.D.]

The Brass barreled "Deshler" rifle (cherry stocked, 1760's-1770's Lehigh area) has a brass box with about 8, I guess, round holes in the bottom of the box, just the right size to hold a pre-patched ball!!! It is not known for sure that this is what the holes were actually for, but it is good logical conjecture.

Interesting. I am aware of tow worms and other accessories carried in patchoboxes, but I was not aware of the "Deshler" rifle. Are photos of this rifle published anywhere?

J.D.

 

[George]

I have two reverences describing the patch box being used for grease.

Audubon, early 19th century:

"He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the “patch” over with some melted tallow..."

Isaac Weld, 1790s:

"The best of powder is chosen for the rifle barrel gun, and after a proper proportion of it is put down the barrel, the ball is enclosed in a small bit of linen rag, well greased at the outside, and then forced down with a thick ramrod. The grease and the bits of rag, which are called patches, are carried in a little box at the butt-end of the gun."

Are there any others?

Spence

 

[Alden]

The Brass barreled "Deshler" rifle (cherry stocked, 1760's-1770's Lehigh area) has a brass box with about 8, I guess, round holes in the bottom of the box, just the right size to hold a pre-patched ball!!! It is not known for sure that this is what the holes were actually for, but it is good logical conjecture.

They could MEASURE THEM -- I mean, they HAVE the friggin' barrel right there -- and look for grease in the wooden holes.
:idunno:

And people DO put extra shotgun shells and cartridges, even magazines, on the stocks/sides of their modern cartridge guns so seems reasonable they put patches in what has come down to us known as... patch boxes. They COULD have called them anything, but didn't.

 

[Stophel]

Here is the awesome "Deshler" rifle.
http://www.erickettenburg.com/Site_2/Part_3.html

Mr. Kettenburg did measure the holes, and a patched ball will fit.

While I knew about patches being tied around balls, Before seeing this a few years ago, I had never seen nor heard of holes in the patchbox for them on a gun, either American or German, and have yet to see another.

 

[Turtle Creek]

That is a great historical piece and that style of PB..lower side hinge seems to me to be the easiest to use when holding the rifle at low port arms.
I'd think carrying grease in the PB makes more sense than carrying it in your bag as that can get pretty messy on a hot day.
Thanks for that link.

 

[Artificer]

Beats me why! They just did. :wink: And, just like today, people liked nifty gizmos. The patchbox is a nifty gizmo.

I actually need to practice my patchbox use. I previously did not really use the patchbox for patches. But the more I have studied, the more I found that they actually did put patches in there and I would like to work out a good loading rhythm using the patchbox.

Great emboldened answer above! :hatsoff:

Your last paragraph is thought provoking, especially if one considers using a sliding wooden patch box. I wonder if they poured the powder and got the ball out first OR if they got the greased patch out first and then went with the rifle butt on the ground to continue loading? Never having had or fired a rifle with a sliding wood patch box, I wonder how hard it would be to have powder in the bore and try to open the patch box (while not dropping it on the ground) and trying to pull a patch or sewn patched ball out?

Part of the reason I ask is because though I've shot a contemporary built Golden Age rifle with a brass patch box since the late 70's, I don't think I have ever stored patches in the box and loaded the rifle that way. I always used either a strip of greased patch material I cut at the bore (yeah, not authentic) or kept pre-cut greased patches in one side of my pouch with the balls.

P.S. For accurate loading with speed that could be vital in a tough situation or a fast follow up shot, I can't see raising the rifle to pull patches from the patch box compared to pulling a ball and cut patch out of the pouch together.

Gus

 

[biliff]

As someone who actually puts patches in a patch box and loads that way, it ain't that hard. First thing you do is get a patch. Spit patches go on the tongue while powder is poured and a ball is dug out, then retrieved and placed on the muzzle. Greased patches are simply held between the lips.

I have one rifle without a box. Digging patches out of the bag is a pain compared with using the box, especially greased ones that pretty much have to go in a tin of some kind.

On trail walks, I'm usually the one that is loaded first and ready to shoot, while everybody else is digging around in their bag.

 

[Turtle Creek]

I've a little leather open top pouch sewed on the center outside of my bag under the flap.
It's right at the top.
That's for patches and a lot quicker than opening a PB....I've done both and reaching to the PB is just one extra move.
Your partners ain't organized.
Now I could see if for carrying some grease to keep that mess out of your bag.

 

[biliff]

Sounds like you traded one nifty gizmo for another.

 

[Turtle Creek]

True, true.
As long as you practice the same moves until they are totally imprinted prob no issue.
SOP's and IAD's done to perfection are the difference between professional and average troops.

 

[Captjoel]

Just another thought. Just suppose that stuff was kept in a rifle's patchbox just in case. I mean just in case one was caught in need. Used mainly in an emergency. Always good to have a back up out on the frontier.

 

[larryp]

Good point or the cleaning supplies being kept in it in the same way many modern military rifles have a cleaning kit in the butt. After all when you think about it many patchboxes are way too big for just patches. Plenty of room for a tow worm, ball puller etc which would otherwise clutter up the shooting bag.