Fake Hawken Rifle ?

[stephenprops1]

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...prod&queryID=eb394bfb1789cac7b220a6b946caa4a0

Without supporting documentation, I would be very leery of this or any so called "antique". Perhaps an expert could be called in to examine it and make a determination. Then, the expert could give a written letter of verification. --- Remember, let the buyer beware.

 

[Spikebuck]

It would be very interesting to see a rubbing of the very faint stamping above the bold and crisp S Hawken stamping. There is definitely something there.

 

[2001guns]

Somebody paid pretty good for that rifle but it doesn't look like any S. Hawken I have seen. Recently I have spent considerable time on the internet researching everything I can find on original Hawken rifles and I have seen muskets similar to the one in this auction but they were not called Hawkens. I CAN tell you that there aren't a heck of a lot of Hawken rifles showing up out there.

 

[vintovka]

What did it sell for?

 

[Sam squanch]

Did Hawkins use a percussion drum on there rifles?

 

[2001guns]

Did Hawkins use a percussion drum on there rifles?

I believe that all Hawken rifles had the "patent breech" where the breech plug, flash cup/cone and vent are all cast as one part. Please see attached photos of S. Hawken breech.

 

[SDSmlf]

I believe that all Hawken rifles had the "patent breech" where the breech plug, flash cup/cone and vent are all cast as one part. Please see attached photos of S. Hawken breech.

You better let the folks authenticating Hawken guns know that the ones they have authenticated without a one piece cast breech plugs as real Hawkens are in fact fake. Might want to show your research. The one in the photograph previously posted here (@deerstalkert I believe) and other places is an example.

 

[Notchy Bob]

What did it sell for?

This is the rifle that was linked in post #1 on this thread:



It sold for $4,000, considerably less than the estimated value of $8,500 - $12,500. Serious collectors who know their business pay big money for genuine original Hawkens. I see that relatively low selling price as an indication that most of them considered this rifle, fine as it is, to be spuriously re-marked as a Hawken.

It looks more like an Ohio rifle. Although I've seen photos of some that were made by them for the local trade that were of this style.

That may be a possibility. Walt may be on to something! While I tend to think of "Ohio rifles" as halfstocked percussion rifles of smaller caliber, the fact is that there were hundreds of gunsmiths in Ohio in the early to mid-19th century, and they likely built rifles to suit the needs of their customers. A tremendous number of emigrants started their journey west with a steamboat trip down the Ohio River to the Mississippi, then upstream to the Missouri River before "jumping off" in northwestern Missouri or Kansas. I suspect the Ohio gunsmiths supplied at least some of them with weapons for their journey. This rifle, in a weight and caliber suitable for hunting buffalo, was made by a well-known Ohio gunsmith named W.W. Hackney:



The triggerguard is different, it has no cap box, and there is only one barrel wedge, but in its overall appearance, this Hackney rifle shares a lot of similarities to the "Hawken" that is the subject of this thread.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[rickystl]

Hi Bob

Early last year there was an auction that featured 3 original Hawken rifles in the same auction. All three looked legit. And I would guess all three were from the same collection. They all sold for between $15-25,000.00. The comparatively low selling price of this rifle is an indication that the bidders knew what they were getting - and not getting - for their money.

Rick

 

[Dale Lilly]

Hawken? Probably not. Nice collector's rifle? Probably. Dale

 

[2001guns]

I certainly bow to those who have been at this a lot longer than newbie me. Please let me rephrase that statement. I believe that SOME Hawken rifles had one piece breech plugs. This one does.

 

[stephenprops1]

Maybe not, it would be your responsibility to know what your buying.

I think the early Romas said this, "Let the buyer beware."

 

[vintovka]

CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RMFnLA]

Doesn't look typical, but Im not well versed in Hawkens. Odd little things though: the escutcheons for the barrel pins are two different shapes, and the front sight looks to have been moved forward during its life span, the old dovetail was filled in with a blank. The lock looks like it has some filling in of holes ( maybe was a flint originally) and the screw in the bolster looks new.

That screw actually matches the one securing the hammer pretty well.

Both replacements?

 

[2001guns]

Somebody paid pretty good for that rifle but it doesn't look like any S. Hawken I have seen. Recently I have spent considerable time on the internet researching everything I can find on original Hawken rifles and I have seen muskets similar to the one in this auction but they were not called Hawkens. I CAN tell you that there aren't a heck of a lot of Hawken rifles showing up out there.

S. Hawken just sold on RIA for $200,000.00!

 

[Black_Feather]

Not to be off topic but, didn’t the Hawken brother make parts and work on rifles too?

 

[HighUintas]

S. Hawken just sold on RIA for $200,000.00!

Do you have a link?

 

[Notchy Bob]

S. Hawken just sold on RIA for $200,000.00!

Do you have a link?

I'm pretty sure this is the rifle @2001guns was referring to: .70 Caliber S. Hawken Owned By Theodore Roosevelt

I don't see the final selling price on that web page, but the auction was just yesterday and they may not have posted it yet. 2001guns is much better at keeping up with news like that than I am.

I thought the documentation of a Kit Carson connection with this rifle sold through RIA was a bit weak, but they are a reputable outfit and they were pretty definite in stating the connection was present. There is no doubt that it is an unusually big-bored genuine Hawken with very strong provenance with regard to Roosevelt. However, Roosevelt did own another Hawken that had a definite connection to Kit Carson. This was written up by Lee Burke in The American Society of Arms Collectors (ASAC) Bulletin 73:14-25 as The Carson Beale Hawken.

$200K for a Hawken... gosh. I wonder if that is a new record.

Notchy Bob

 

[waksupi]

Looks like a parts gun, I sure wouldn't buy it as an original Hawken.

 

[Gtrubicon]

It’s probably a good thing that I can’t afford a rifle like that, I’d have to shoot it,