Fake Hawken Rifle ?

[Gtrubicon]

Does anyone know what the powder charge would have been for a rifle like that?

 

[Secesh]

Nice write up but no cookie for the seller.​

Without provenance that description is absolutely worthless and that is evident by the wise and cautious bidders and the rifle’s ending price. A bit troubling that a large auction house would make a statement “Built by Samuel Hawken of St. Louis, Missouri” without a disclaimer or provenance other than a stamp on the barrel. To their credit they did place a link at the end of the description, “request more information”, which I would guess is where their disclaimer was located as to the rifle’s uncertain pedigree.

Looks like a very nice Western Pennsylvania/Ohio rifle to me. I would love to own it myself.

​

Description​

SERIAL NUMBER N/A BARREL 30 1/2" CALIBER 52 RIFLED MANUFACTURED CIRCA 1845. Built by Samuel Hawken of St, Louis Missouri. Classic half stock percussion rifle with large 52 caliber rifled barrel 1" across the flats and signed properly "S.HAWKEN" / "ST.LOUIS". Has fine blade front sight with low modified rear sight. Double set trigger with percussion lock marked with indiscernible makers name and light engraving. Oil finished stock checkered at wrist and barrel retained with dual pins with German silver escutcheons. The butttplate, crescent butt plate and trigger guard are of brass and a narrow brass forend cap of his own pattern from the mid 1840's period. Samuel Hawken is best known for these exact rifles and being at the gateway to the west he outfitted many hunters, trappers and settlers with his famed 1/2 stock large bore rifles. With having learned his rifle making trade from his Pennsylvania gunsmith father Samuel and his brother moved west to Missouri. The PA, influence is evident in the design and architecture of his rifles but he made the design his own with his distinct pattern. CONDITION, Very fine with the barrel being a mottled patina with very crisp markings. The barrel has evidence of having an early telescope attachment with 2 plugged holes at the tang and and an addition filled dovetail at the muzzle. This is credence to its Buffalo Hunting heritage. The stock is very good with good checkering , remaining full sized and all brass and German silver furniture remaining rigidly intact. The lock operates properly as does the double set triggers. This rifle is a very fine example made just prior to the Hawken rifle shop being transitioned to Gemmer who took over the operation in later years.

 

[HighUintas]

Yes @Notchy Bob I happened to find that listing on RIA and thought that might be it.

Regarding provenance, is it questionable because there's not physical evidence showing the rifle actually came from Kit Carson? It seems there is no question that it was owned by Theodore Roosevelt. It seems to me like maybe that was more of a long-range target gun except for the fact that it has a ramrod under the barrel. I can't imagine using that heavy of a gun for hunting, even if I planned to use cross sticks.

I'd like to know the twist of the barrel. Also, the front sight is very different from the other tokens I've seen, as they're typically a copper base with a silver post, and that looks like it is an iron base with a brass post

 

[Notchy Bob]

Yes @Notchy Bob I happened to find that listing on RIA and thought that might be it.

Regarding provenance, is it questionable because there's not physical evidence showing the rifle actually came from Kit Carson? It seems there is no question that it was owned by Theodore Roosevelt. It seems to me like maybe that was more of a long-range target gun except for the fact that it has a ramrod under the barrel. I can't imagine using that heavy of a gun for hunting, even if I planned to use cross sticks.

I'd like to know the twist of the barrel. Also, the front sight is very different from the other tokens I've seen, as they're typically a copper base with a silver post, and that looks like it is an iron base with a brass post

Thanks for your comments, @HighUintas .

I want to say that I thought the Kit Carson connection might be kind of weak on this big rifle, but that is purely speculative on my part. The write-up focused heavily on the story of Kit Carson and Ned Beale. However, the Carson-Beale Hawken is an entirely different gun (please see the ASAC article by Lee Burke, linked in my post above). They (Rock Island Auctions) do acknowledge this in that written description, but I was kind of scratching my head over why they would devote so much text to a different gun. It seemed possible (to me) that the stories of the two rifles may have merged somewhat over time, in the Roosevelt family lore. I want to make it clear that I am absolutely not suggesting anything was falsified… it’s just that if the Kit Carson connection was important to me, I would prefer stronger documentation for the rifle being sold, and maybe less about the other rifle in the description, which confuses things in my mind. I’m not questioning the assertion that the rifle rifle being offered was once owned by Kit Carson… I would just prefer stronger confirmation of it, if that detail was important to me.

There are a number of Kit Carson firearms out there. There’s the Hawken that belongs to the Masonic lodge in Taos, the rifle Oliver Wiggins claimed Carson gave him (which I think may be in the University of Colorado collection), a Spencer carbine with a beaded buckskin case, a German silver mounted small-bore half-stocked percussion rifle, and even an 1866 Springfield trapdoor rifle, which somehow ended up as a trophy in the Arizona-New Mexico football rivalry. The Spencer and its buckskin case and the silver mounted rifle were both sold at auction within the past few years, and the latter sale was actually handled by Rock Island Auctions. Carson was also believed to have bought guns from Benjamin Mills, the Kentucky gunsmith. Carson almost certainly owned a variety of firearms over the course of his life.

Otherwise, everything said about that extraordinary $200k rifle is above question… a genuine Hawken unusual for its enormous bore and remarkable condition, and a solid connection to Theodore Roosevelt. The legendary Ashley Hawken and the John Brown Hawken both supposedly shot one-ounce (~.66 caliber) balls, so we know the Hawken shop turned out a few rifles with larger bores, but they weren’t common. Also, T.R. would have been the perfect owner for it, considering his obsession with “manliness.”

Rock Island Auctions, I believe, is one of the more reliable auction houses. Their lot descriptions tend to be very carefully researched, detailed, and extensive, and their pictures are exceptional. It’s always fun to browse through their website.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Wncman]

I believe that all Hawken rifles had the "patent breech" where the breech plug, flash cup/cone and vent are all cast as one part. Please see attached photos of S. Hawken breech.

I believe that’s called a snell/snail. At least that’s what we used to call it.