Fast twist in a flintlock

[pegro1]

TG said: I think we have come to the point that it really doesn't matter anymore. tradition in ML hunting is pretty much gone.

Sorry dude I gotta disagree with ya and can't believe no one else here did. Trditional Muzzleloading is not gone. But if we choose to keep trying to use modern things while muzzleloading then it may fade but it will never die off. To stay traditional in ML you gotta do it the way they did it in the "OLD DAYS" and stop looking for an easyer route, otherwise why muzzleload at all.

 

[Runner]

Depends on what you call tradition I guess. As in every other interest, there are levels within the hobby.
Back when I started hunting alone with a CVA 45 Kentucky using the info that J. Wayne Fears, Sam Fadala, and a few others were putting out, traditional was being stupid enough to carry that thing to the woods and hope it went off when you needed. There was no one else that I knew that even shot the guns, much less hunted with them.
Today, traditional is limiting myself to the common tech of the time period, and the time period keeps moving back.

 

[Dphar]

" I'm guessing a short barreled fast twist flintlock may not be a lot of folk's idea of a "traditional" weapon."

I think we have come to the point that it really doesn't matter anymore. tradition in ML hunting is pretty much gone, probably not much point in even talking about it anymore.many are useing all the modern components that gave birth to the (I) word guns, by useing the same technology and just changing the cosmetic appearance of the gun to a sidelock type, it is still a modern ML outfit. performance wise.

This is probably one of the sillier statements I have heard, assuming you are actually serious. If not you may ignore the following, or not.
Hunting with a traditional ML is a state of mind. There is no advantage to hunting with a conical for the vast majority of ML hunters in the US. BUT ITS BEEN HYPED BY BIG BUSINESS FOR 30 YEARS.
The people who use modern plastic stocked inlines with semi-smokeless or even smokeless powder with heavy slugs and saboted pistol bullets NEVER WERE TRADITIONAL ML hunters. They simply started shooting MLs to get into an extra hunting season. They are more comfortable with something that looks like their trusty .270 so thats what they use. Heaven forbid they should get patch lube on their hands while loading. Might get something on their $300 cammy coat. Their primary goal is killing, not hunting.

People who hunt with traditional rifles with blackpowder and patched RBs are the same people they always were. We are interested in history and can get closer to it by hunting with firearms that are "typical of the era" were are interested in.
OR we just like flintlocks. I do.
I fail to see any advantage in an "its over we just as well give up and by a inline and be done with it attitude". It sounds like someone who reads too many big name gun magazines and worse thinks he is getting the truth about anything he might read there.
If you want to use a fast twist ML with slugs or an inline because you friends do thats it your choice. Peer pressure is a terrible thing.
Had this been a concern of mine I would never have started shooting a ML in the first place. I shot MLs for several years in my teens before I ever met anyone else who did. My "peer group" all hunted with .410s and 22s.

Dan

 

[Stumpkiller]

Traditional hunting is every bit as alive and active as traditional fishing; without plastics, resins or synthetic fibers or line and from shore or else from oar or sail driven wooden boats . . .

Oh. :-(

tg was making a point. He knows some of us cling to tradtional [enough] hunting. Even if our barrels are steel and our arms have vaccination scars. ;-)

 

[paulvallandigham]

What Dan said. :hatsoff:

 

[faw3]

Someone PLEASE give me a real answer to this! All the org Jags I've seen in MB or at a show ect the twist is as long as the barrel, and they was short 26 to 31" barrels but you hear they could be reallly good at 100 yds with a power load. OK lets jump ahead to the NMLRA meet that had any rifle team by a maker in-(nassty word's) the 2 nd or 3 year Dixie put a team in with the then new PEDRO's Jags no scope's,95grs 2f, and PRB with a 1X24 twist and about made Knight :barf: out the other end til they got to the part that scopes helped, now his is what Ive read in 2 mags not haveing anything to do with Dixie and one even running Knight adds SO how does a PRB ,iron sights,1X26 twist beat one of those other junkers??? I REALLY GOT TO KNOW!(BACK IN 1971 WHEN i STARTED AND HATED THE TIME IT TOOK TO LOAD prb's I shot any bullet I could get to workout of 1X66 rifles, for years till I got slowed down and now I've shot PRB for a bunch so I got no idea how the above could be right ...someone help me out I dont own any fst twist rifles (well that 12" Colt with the stock but it wont hold a rifle's load) Thanks much. Got to know....Fred :hatsoff:

 

[SR James]

Dan: The people who use modern plastic stocked inlines with semi-smokeless or even smokeless powder with heavy slugs and saboted pistol bullets NEVER WERE TRADITIONAL ML hunters. They simply started shooting MLs to get into an extra hunting season. They are more comfortable with something that looks like their trusty .270 so thats what they use. Heaven forbid they should get patch lube on their hands while loading. Might get something on their $300 cammy coat. Their primary goal is killing, not hunting.

I'll agree with everything in that paragraph except the last sentence. While that may be true for some, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who uses a modern rifle, whether muzzleloader or cartridge, is not hunting. That's tarring 95% of hunters with a pretty broad brush.

I've taken deer at muzzleloading ranges with everthing from flintlocks to black powder cartridge single shots and leverguns, to modern scoped rifles. Did I need a scoped modern rifle to make those shots? No, but it was my hunting skills that got me that close. The rifle was irrelevant. I could take your comment a step further and suggest that anyone not using a bow is only interested in killing.

A final point...I use to think that "primitive" hunting seasons were all about the traditional guns and techniques of muzzleloading hunting. I didn't understand why inlines, etc were allowed. Then a wildlife biologist informed me that the wildlife dept. couldn't care less about any of that; they were interested in further reducing the deer herd. Period. So to them, it WAS all about the killing. That said, I wouldn't use an inline under any circumstances. That's my choice. But I recognize that other people may not share my preferences.

 

[pegro1]

Thank you Dan Phariss, that was great. :thumbsup:
And I agree that in-lines sux. Not traditional so I think they should be used during regular rifle season, but thats just MHO.
Jim

 

[Zonie]

fw: You posted, :Someone PLEASE give me a real answer to this! All the org Jags I've seen in MB or at a show ect the twist is as long as the barrel, and they was short 26 to 31" barrels but you hear they could be reallly good at 100 yds with a power load."

I don't know that I have any answer for the Dixie Jaeger but I spent a few moments looking at Shumways "JAEGER RIFLE" book.
According to Shumways book, the Jaegers he studied ranged from smoothbores thru rifles with zero twist (straight rifling) thru a 1:27 twist.
Although he does mention the caliber and number of rifling grooves for most of the guns shown, he seldom mentioned the twist rate.
The rifle with the 1:27 twist had a 26 3/4 inch barrel and he describes another with a 34 inch twist in a 31 9/16 inch barrel.
This seems to go along with your comment about the rifling being about 1 turn in the length of the barrel.

In any case, the twist rate in both of these guns is rather "fast" considering the 1:34 barrel was a .55 caliber and the 1:27 twist barrel was a .58 caliber.

He doesn't mention the depth of the rifling but all of the Jaeger rifles I've seen had VERY deep rifling. Some to the point that I wondered how on earth a patched ball could ever seal in the barrel.

I think the depth of the rifling in these guns explains a great deal about how a heavy powder charge might have been used even though the twist is what we today would call a "fast twist".

Another line of thinking about these Jeagers is that the hunters who used them had not read any of the magazines and books that were written in the late 20th century and the 21st century so they didn't know that they should be using super powerful Magnum loads in their guns.

They were raised in the age when the most accurate powder load was the "best" powder load whether they were target shooting or hunting. This goes along with the idea that in order to make a clean killing hit, you first have to hit what your shooting at.
If people wanted more "knock down" power, they used a larger caliber back then.

Anyway, we know today that fast twist barrels with deep rifling grooves work just fine with heavy loads and fast twist barrels with shallow rifling grooves don't like heavy powder loads when they are shot with a roundball.

My only guess about why Dixie's Jaeger shoots a roundball as well as it does is because although it has a 1:24 twist, the rifling is .006 deep? (as compared to the .003 deep grooves in my Schuetzen and the .005 deep grooves in some of the Modern things.).

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I believe that the original Jaeger rifles used a lighter powder charge than we are accustomed to today. This worked well in a fast twist barrel. Don't know how a heavy charge would work in one of these original rifles.

 

[Dphar]

I'll agree with everything in that paragraph except the last sentence. While that may be true for some, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who uses a modern rifle, whether muzzleloader or cartridge, is not hunting. That's tarring 95% of hunters with a pretty broad brush.

I've taken deer at muzzleloading ranges with everthing from flintlocks to black powder cartridge single shots and leverguns, to modern scoped rifles. Did I need a scoped modern rifle to make those shots? No, but it was my hunting skills that got me that close. The rifle was irrelevant. I could take your comment a step further and suggest that anyone not using a bow is only interested in killing.

A final point...I use to think that "primitive" hunting seasons were all about the traditional guns and techniques of muzzleloading hunting. I didn't understand why inlines, etc were allowed. Then a wildlife biologist informed me that the wildlife dept. couldn't care less about any of that; they were interested in further reducing the deer herd. Period. So to them, it WAS all about the killing. That said, I wouldn't use an inline under any circumstances. That's my choice. But I recognize that other people may not share my preferences.

Considering the way a great many people hunt. Setting in blind with bait out front I pretty much stand by my statement.

I hunt with what I hunt with. I killed 2 Coyotes, a possible 3rd (never found him, 140 gr Sierra BTHP match bullet don't tear up the hide but don't always stop a coyote) and two prong horns with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser this year. I think everything I shot 2006 was with smokeless powder in a Marlin 45-70 or the Swede. I have uses for the Swede. I use it when I have relatives to guide. I use it for hayfield whitetails and this year I shot a couple of pronghorns, first I have hunted these in probably 15 years. But its not my hunting gun. Its a killer. The BPCR are more challenging. The flintlock more still. I have a place where pronghorn with the flinter might work next year so I will apply again.
I have shot deer, antelope, elk and bear with a wide variety of firearms or quite a few years. I think I have enough experience as a hunter and guide to differentiate between hunting and killing.
The point is that the modern scoped rifle makes it very easy, even an old smokeless load like the Swede. A scoped sabot shooting HV "ML" makes it too easy too. Too easy to share the season with a traditional ML. It is also "road apples" that the game killed with these things is put in the same record book as that killed with a Flintlock or other "primitive" firearms.
People that buy inlines have a different mindset (yes this varies with the person) and are simply extending their season. In a way this is good, more hunter participation. For a hunter hoping to hunt in a less populated hunting ground with his flintlock its bad.
Years ago people with ML arms, traditional ones shooting PRBs went to a lot of trouble getting the laws changed so it was possible to hunt with a ML in their state. Now their special season is overrun with people with model 70 clones that load from the muzzle. Increased pressure changes the whole dynamic and makes it just like the regular season, semi-crazy at times, game spooky as hell. I might add that these seasons were put into place before the deer over populated.
I would also point out that if the deer population is out of control they need to make the deer season longer. Shoot deer 10 months out of the year... Give a break in the summer then start with Archery, primitive weapons and any firearm seasons in turn for 8-10 moths. Or just wait for Blue Tongue to arrive, it will solve the WT problem in a few weeks. Trust me. Several dead deer to the acre in large populations. WT Deer were hard hit along the Musselshell according to a friend. See link below.

I see no reason what-so-ever that "modern" MLs using slugs and saboted pistol bullets should be allowed in a ML season. But the money is on their side. If they were not allowed in the ML season the makers could not sell 5% of what they do now.

So forgive me if I see people invading the often hard fought for ML season with their idiotic firearms as an intrusion and as people who are just there to shoot something and go home. Its a double edged sword thing... Cuts good, more hunters, cuts bad, more hunters.
Every hunting season I am thankful that Montana has no ML season....
I would also point out that I am somewhat cranky as I see more and more people on public land week ends, middle of the week all the same now as more and more private land is closed due to "trespass fees" (300-400 for locals) and leased hunting. Makes it VERY much harder to score with a primitive firearm.
Dan[url] http://www.newwest.net/topic/..._montana_livestock_and_wildlife/C520/L40[/url]/

 

[Sherlock]

Dan is correct. Additionally, at least here in NC, that I know of, the state wildlife people JUMPED on the M/L season as a way to reduce the deer herds because of insurance company complaints, agricultural problems with crop damage, and indeed the negative human impact of deer/car colisions. Frequently the paper publishes deer/car collisions day by day, and I can use that to track the rut. BTW, there are those about that STILL don't know about the NMLRA, and we should sure tell them.

 

[SR James]

Dan, don't get me wrong...I agree with almost everything you've said. I have no use for scoped inlines and wish the things had never been invented. I also wish they weren't allowed during muzzleloading season. I was just pointing out that from the point of view of many state wildlife departments, they are welcomed as a way to further reduce the deer pop.more than would be accomplished via conventional muzzleloaders alone. And because of that I was told by the wildlife manager that any protests over their inclusion in muzzleloading season would fall on deaf ears. He pointed out that it was a "muzzleloading season" not a "primitive firearms" season. So, like it or not, at least here in Oklahoma, we're stuck with them. This year just prior to muzzleloading season I was at my local gun club shooting my flinters. The line was full of people sighting in their new inlines. In fact, I was the ONLY traditional muzzleloader shooter on the line. There wasn't even a TC Hawken in sight. Nothing but plastic stocks, 209 primers and "pellets".

 

[Dphar]

Dan, don't get me wrong...I agree with almost everything you've said. I have no use for scoped inlines and wish the things had never been invented. I also wish they weren't allowed during muzzleloading season. I was just pointing out that from the point of view of many state wildlife departments, they are welcomed as a way to further reduce the deer pop.more than would be accomplished via conventional muzzleloaders alone. And because of that I was told by the wildlife manager that any protests over their inclusion in muzzleloading season would fall on deaf ears. He pointed out that it was a "muzzleloading season" not a "primitive firearms" season. So, like it or not, at least here in Oklahoma, we're stuck with them. This year just prior to muzzleloading season I was at my local gun club shooting my flinters. The line was full of people sighting in their new inlines. In fact, I was the ONLY traditional muzzleloader shooter on the line. There wasn't even a TC Hawken in sight. Nothing but plastic stocks, 209 primers and "pellets".

I didn't say we were not stuck. See my comment on money.
But the original ML seasons were intended, by those who instigated them, to be traditional ML seasons. The inline, the modern ML as we know it today simply did not exist so far as I know even in the planning stage back in the 60s.
The rise of the TC Hawken (TC really started it all) was the result of the popularity of the western rendezvous in the early 1970s. It REALLY took off circa 1970. A lot of this was the result of the writings of John Baird. The TC Hawken was not so named because it resembles a Hawken. It was because name recognition was high when it hit the market. It got a LOT of people into ML shooting, good. Bad, from my standpoint, was the evolution into plastic.

I understand a lot of this better than most. I wrote for the Buckskin Report. I was there through the threatened lawsuits etc etc. Anyone remember the article on Blackpowder?? Boy did that light a fire. It was true but it was "unpopular" for reasons not even related to shooting BP in guns. I just wanted better powder to shoot. Did not know WHY it as received as it was till some time later. There were no more like it......

As I stated if the various F&G Departments were that worried over numbers they would stretch the seasons. But that would force the wardens and biologists to work a longer season and they would not like that much.

Yes, we are stuck with the inlines and other manure. But I don't have to just roll over. I can at least voice an opinion. If you just lay down and let it mash you hunting with traditional MLs will be outlawed. Its been advocated for years by some gun writers who get money from firms that make "new and improved".

Dan

 

[Claude Mathis]

The original topic was...

"Has anyone else tried a fast twist in a flinter and if so, what were the results?"

 

[faw3]

The above is realy fine sure brings back stuff from years ago, Ol John Baird and his 7 page letter to T/C about calling them Hawkens :barf: he was really fit to be tied. Also I'm not sure about this "
01/09/08 02:08 AM - Post#514656


SR James Said:

I'll agree with everything in that paragraph except the last sentence. While that may be true for some, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who uses a modern rifle, whether muzzleloader or cartridge, is not hunting. That's tarring 95% of hunters with a pretty broad brush.

I've taken deer at muzzleloading ranges with everthing from flintlocks to black powder cartridge single shots and leverguns, to modern scoped rifles. Did I need a scoped modern rifle to make those shots? No, but it was my hunting skills that got me that close. The rifle was irrelevant. I could take your comment a step further and suggest that anyone not using a bow is only interested in killing.

A final point...I use to think that "primitive" hunting seasons were all about the traditional guns and techniques of muzzleloading hunting. I didn't understand why inlines, etc were allowed. Then a wildlife biologist informed me that the wildlife dept. couldn't care less about any of that; they were interested in further reducing the deer herd. Period. So to them, it WAS all about the killing. That said, I wouldn't use an inline under any circumstances. That's my choice. But I recognize that other people may not share my preferences.




Considering the way a great many people hunt. Setting in blind with bait out front I pretty much stand by my statement.

I hunt with what I hunt with. I killed 2 Coyotes, a possible 3rd (never found him, 140 gr Sierra BTHP match bullet don't tear up the hide but don't always stop a coyote) and two prong horns with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser this year. I think everything I shot 2006 was with smokeless powder in a Marlin 45-70 or the Swede. I have uses for the Swede. I use it when I have relatives to guide. I use it for hayfield whitetails and this year I shot a couple of pronghorns, first I have hunted these in probably 15 years. But its not my hunting gun. Its a killer. The BPCR are more challenging. The flintlock more still. I have a place where pronghorn with the flinter might work next year so I will apply again.
I have shot deer, antelope, elk and bear with a wide variety of firearms or quite a few years. I think I have enough experience as a hunter and guide to differentiate between hunting and killing.
The point is that the modern scoped rifle makes it very easy, even an old smokeless load like the Swede. A scoped sabot shooting HV "ML" makes it too easy too. Too easy to share the season with a traditional ML. It is also "road apples" that the game killed with these things is put in the same record book as that killed with a Flintlock or other "primitive" firearms.
People that buy inlines have a different mindset (yes this varies with the person) and are simply extending their season. In a way this is good, more hunter participation. For a hunter hoping to hunt in a less populated hunting ground with his flintlock its bad.
Years ago people with ML arms, traditional ones shooting PRBs went to a lot of trouble getting the laws changed so it was possible to hunt with a ML in their state. Now their special season is overrun with people with model 70 clones that load from the muzzle. Increased pressure changes the whole dynamic and makes it just like the regular season, semi-crazy at times, game spooky as hell. I might add that these seasons were put into place before the deer over populated.
I would also point out that if the deer population is out of control they need to make the deer season longer. Shoot deer 10 months out of the year... Give a break in the summer then start with Archery, primitive weapons and any firearm seasons in turn for 8-10 moths. Or just wait for Blue Tongue to arrive, it will solve the WT problem in a few weeks. Trust me. Several dead deer to the acre in large populations. WT Deer were hard hit along the Musselshell according to a friend. See link below.

I see no reason what-so-ever that "modern" MLs using slugs and saboted pistol bullets should be allowed in a ML season. But the money is on their side. If they were not allowed in the ML season the makers could not sell 5% of what they do now".
And if you missed it in Va when they had just our kind ofML only a few 100 people showed up,the next they let the in :barf: in and it jumped to 90,000. The people pushing it has money lots of it you see them shooting things on tv all the time who else can fly anyplace 7 days a week to try out this new wonder manure??? What really bites my butt is they let these crooks into record books and they just killed something didnt hunt it, my kid got hit by a deer in the car a few weeks ago should he go in too??? Just more bull, I can't help but think of the story in the old MB about the guy that took 6 or 7 shots at a ? something of size I think moose out a few 100 yards with some of his friends and hit the dang thing . I took a hour or so to climb nearly straight up but he found his kill less than 50 yards away leaning on a tree ( bet getting it down was :cursing: ) ZONIE I may have the answerto the fast twist and why it works in some guns, and the old Jags useda good amount of powder,(the stuf wasn't that good)and remember they had to beat with a brass hammer some of those balls in, hunting some of those wild hogs in Germ,ect you wanted knock down with the first shot, but Ive got to get to hospital now. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The original topic was...

"Has anyone else tried a fast twist in a flinter and if so, what were the results?"

A fellow I met at the Longrifle Seminar at Bowling Green, KY. makes beautiful rifles. Just for kicks he made a .62 cal Lancaster Rifle with a twist of 1" in 48" To him that was a fast twist flintlock. He is a PRB shooter. The rifle did very well with light to moderate loads - which was his goal. He wanted to shoot gongs and such with a easy recoiling gun and get the knock down from a big ball instead of high velocity. He had a lot of fun with it.

(I realize this twist is not what most folks think of when fast twist is mentioned, but for a .62 I suppose it is.)

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Runner]

1-32 shallow groove works just fine with roundball. Once you develop a load for that barrel. The one I experimented with required a thin patch and a tight load. If you want to use heavy powder loads in a fast twist barrel and not strip the rifling, the load has to be tight enough to engrave the ball thru the patch. It isn't rocket science.
Weren't the early Jeager rifles loaded using a mallet to start the ball? I remember reading about that being military practice in part of the area where the rifles originated.
Anyway, get a good short starter, balls pretty close to bore, and some .0010 patches.

 

[skidoo]

i took a 40-65 winchester 40 cal barrel 1 in 16 twist riflings are .005 deep 38 inches long, rice barrel put a breech plug in it drilled flash liner hole tapped 1/4 28 308 stainless steel liner jim chambers siler flintlock davis double set trigger ted cash furniture premium curly maple stock, browned all the parts, auqua fortes stain, it shoots a 400 grain 410 dia sized to 409 conical bullet the bullet is 1 1/4 inches long sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards 65 grains of goex FFFG powder looking at this gun you cannot tell the differance between my 50 cal getts swamped 1/66 twist .012 deep riflings with the same lock triggers furniture and stock until i killed the elk at about 400 yards i have been shooting black powder for 25 years and flintlock for 20 of them i just like building and shooting black power guns

 

[Walks with fire]

Yes, I have a RMC 1/28 twist flinter in .50 caliber. I have shot it with roundballs only at 50 yards so far. I shot one big hole with 80 grains of 2f.

I was told to keep the barrel swabbed clean between shots and to use a close to bore size ball and patch up for a very snug fit. My barrel is a GM LRH in .50 cal.; I used a .495 ball and .017 patch with Crisco lube. It was very accurate. I will test it out at longer range later this spring when it is comfortable to play with it for hours; it's too cold here for long range sessions right now.

It does real well with long and heavy conicals; but light and short ball-ets are not good. It also shoots saboted pointed and pistol bullets very well at extended range. I actually prefer the faster twist barrel over a slow twist because it does well with many different projectiles.

When I first got it the gun only did well with a couple of loads but now that it has 100 rounds or so through it the groups are shrinking and it is not nearly as fussy about what I load in it. It's a great barrel in my opinion. I have 24" and 28" barrels for it but would really like something in the 36" range much better. Enough said.