Feedback on powder charge

[Zonie]

...
For those shooting 60 grains, does it kick similar to a modern rifle, in the 30.06 range?

For a patched .440 diameter roundball to have the same energy as a 30-06 I did some calculating.
It turns out a typical load for a 150 grain bullet fired from a 30-06 at 2,825 fps makes about 2,659 ft/lbs of energy.

The little .440 diameter roundball weighs about 128 grains so because it is lighter than the 150 grain bullet, it has to be going faster than that bullet.
After crunching the numbers, the ball would need to be traveling at 3,046.2 fps to make as much energy.

According to the Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL", a 120 grain powder load of GOEX 3Fg powder will drive the ball at a muzzle velocity of 2,124 fps so in my opinion there is no practical way of making your .45 kick like a .30-06.

Getting back to the real subject, if you'r after hogs I wouldn't blame you one bit for going with a powder load higher than 60 grains.
Again, per the Lyman book a 60 grain powder load of 3Fg powder will give a muzzle velocity of about 1719 fps with an energy of 840 ft/lbs.
Bumping the load up to 90 grains will increase the velocity to 1912 fps with a muzzle energy of 1039 ft/lbs.
That's less than half of the energy of a 30-06 but IMO, when it comes to hogs, every little bit helps.
Just make sure the gun shoots accurately with that big powder load. Some guns won't shoot worth beans with big loads and accuracy is the name of the game when it comes to muzzle loaders.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You can go to a conical bullet if your barrel has a faster twist than a RB barrel and up your penetration / ME / power due to the heavier projectile.

 

[Frontier's]

comparing center fire ammo to a round ball makes zero sense, its apples to oranges. A center fire isnt firing a round ball projectile either.
A round ball is a simple projectile, it kills by the mass size of it, it simply flat out penetrating the vitals, and destroys what it comes into contact with. There is nothing on this planet that can survive a double lung hit or a heart shot with a 1/2" diameter projectile, then factor in the flattening of the ball.

I see folks shooting deer with 400-500-600gr conicals and its like daaang! Are deer becoming bullet proof or do you just like to make hamburger while shooting it?

70gr 3fg, .490 round ball on this bull elk.

ent

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[Kansas Jake]

I don’t currently own a 45, but in a CVA Kentucky would probably limit myself to around 70 grains. I’ve not hunted hogs either but would think the load would be adequate on pigs around 150 pounds and under if not shot at much over 50 yards.

 

[Eterry]

As always... The devil is in the details...

My good friend grew up hunting the Red river... its thick as can be, 75 yards is a LONG shot. He routinely killed everything with a 22WMR, using Winchester FMJ's and head shots. I got a 22WMR and using head shots never had a hog get away.

IMHO, most people mess up by shooting at hogs like they would a deer... behind the shoulder, and the hog runs off. I've seen it a dozen times. I think the vitals are farther forward than on a deer.

George taught me to shoot for their eye or ear... if not there then right in the shoulder. I've never lost a hog using those aiming points.

We were squirrel hunting once...i had a 22LR auto rifle with cci Target ammo. Dang thing wouldn't cycle the low power ammo.
Im sitting on a log and a 90 lb. hog stands up 15 yards away in the brush. All i can see is his head. I shoot him in the ear. Down he goes, but gets up, just standing there. I reload and try again... down he goes. Now he's thrashing in the brush. I go in and another 22 LR target load in the ear and we had fresh pork for supper.

It was daylight, a small/ medium size pig, close range, had plenty of ammo and a clear shot of the ear.

Would I do that hunting at night with the monster's that Howie hunts? NO WAY.

The takeaway??? A 45 with 60grs fffg and prb is PLENTY to hog hunt if you place your shot.
SHOT PLACEMENT is KING!!

 

[Frontier's]

Exactly correct! The vitals in a big are deep in the chest. You put it right in the shoulder and you'll take out the lungs and heart.

 

[Poboy]

For a patched .440 diameter roundball to have the same energy as a 30-06 I did some calculating.
It turns out a typical load for a 150 grain bullet fired from a 30-06 at 2,825 fps makes about 2,659 ft/lbs of energy.

The little .440 diameter roundball weighs about 128 grains so because it is lighter than the 150 grain bullet, it has to be going faster than that bullet.
After crunching the numbers, the ball would need to be traveling at 3,046.2 fps to make as much energy.

According to the Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL", a 120 grain powder load of GOEX 3Fg powder will drive the ball at a muzzle velocity of 2,124 fps so in my opinion there is no practical way of making your .45 kick like a .30-06.

Getting back to the real subject, if you'r after hogs I wouldn't blame you one bit for going with a powder load higher than 60 grains.
Again, per the Lyman book a 60 grain powder load of 3Fg powder will give a muzzle velocity of about 1719 fps with an energy of 840 ft/lbs.
Bumping the load up to 90 grains will increase the velocity to 1912 fps with a muzzle energy of 1039 ft/lbs.
That's less than half of the energy of a 30-06 but IMO, when it comes to hogs, every little bit helps.
Just make sure the gun shoots accurately with that big powder load. Some guns won't shoot worth beans with big loads and accuracy is the name of the game when it comes to muzzle loaders.

That's all very interesting. If you go back to your Lyman book, you'll see they just go with loads up to 110 grains on the. 45, and almost every caliber. I was actually very disappointed with that book, as I thought it was going to be like a modern cartridge reloading guide, with minimum and maximum charges.

TBH, my .45 never kicked like a modern 30.06, but, you dang sure got your shoulder pushed back pretty good, which is why I think I was shooting 90 grains fffg all those years ago.

As far as shot placement, I will be double checking the accuracy, but I just feel much more comfortable shooting at a shoulder than an ear. I mean, this is a cheap, 1:66 prb Kentucky rifle. No conicals no bells and whistles....Daniel Boone style.

 

[Eterry]

IIRC, the Lyman personnel used a copper crusher to determine max pressure. They went by 5 and 10 grain increments, and once the maximum CUP was reached testing stopped. Some loads used LUP for pressure, and they explain how to convert from one to another.

They explained most black powder shooters load by 5 to 10 grains, not 0.10 grain as in smokeless powder, due to pressure variations.

It's a very interesting read, if you read all the fine print.

 

[Poboy]

IIRC, the Lyman personnel used a copper crusher to determine max pressure. They went by 5 and 10 grain increments, and once the maximum CUP was reached testing stopped. Some loads used LUP for pressure, and they explain how to convert from one to another.

They explained most black powder shooters load by 5 to 10 grains, not 0.10 grain as in smokeless powder, due to pressure variations.

It's a very interesting read, if you read all the fine print.

I didn't see anything about "pressure " in that book, only velocities.

 

[Zonie]

My copy of the "Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK $ LOADING MANUAL" says this about how they determined the pressures they printed:

"... All pressure data collected was with the use of piezo electronic equipment and is measured in actual pounds per square inch (PSI). Standard black powder barrels were modified to accept a pressure transducer and were connected to a peak pressure meter. If no pressure data is listed, an actual firearm was used for testing and only velocity was recorded..."

The pressure transducer measures the movement or expansion of the barrel wall when the barrel is fired. By installing it in an area where the area and volume of material is controlled to an exact size, very accurate measurement of the internal pressure is possible.

LUP testing that uses a lead cylinder crush to determine pressures is usually used for pressures higher than those that black powder guns develop. It is often used to test medium pressure cartridges pressures.

CUP or the copper cylinder crush method is reserved for very high chamber pressures found in modern smokeless cartridge rifles.

I might add that almost all of the tested powder/ball/bullet loads shown in the book show the breech pressures for each load.
For example, did you know that 100 grains of Pyrodex Select loaded into a 28 inch long, .45 caliber, 1:48 twist barrel under a Buffalo HP Conical 325 grain bullet will produce a breech pressure of 29,300 psi? That my friends is some very serious pressure. Even a 60 grain load of this powder in this barrel/bullet combination produced a pressure of 17,000 psi.

The same barrel shooting a patched roundball over 60 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder produced a pressure of 11,300 psi.

 

[Poboy]

Wow, where did you find that? My copy IS the second edition, and I screwed up saying it didn't have pressures , I was just really upset it wasn't what expected, so I put it aside.

 

[Poboy]

Learn something new every day.

 

[Poboy]

comparing center fire ammo to a round ball makes zero sense, its apples to oranges. A center fire isnt firing a round ball projectile either.
A round ball is a simple projectile, it kills by the mass size of it, it simply flat out penetrating the vitals, and destroys what it comes into contact with. There is nothing on this planet that can survive a double lung hit or a heart shot with a 1/2" diameter projectile, then factor in the flattening of the ball.

I see folks shooting deer with 400-500-600gr conicals and its like daaang! Are deer becoming bullet proof or do you just like to make hamburger while shooting it?

70gr 3fg, .490 round ball on this bull elk.

ent

ext

How dare you post such graphic pics of carnage??? Why do I feel jealous and hungry now?LOL.

 

[Eterry]

My copy of the "Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK $ LOADING MANUAL" says this about how they determined the pressures they printed:

"... All pressure data collected was with the use of piezo electronic equipment and is measured in actual pounds per square inch (PSI). Standard black powder barrels were modified to accept a pressure transducer and were connected to a peak pressure meter. If no pressure data is listed, an actual firearm was used for testing and only velocity was recorded..."

The pressure transducer measures the movement or expansion of the barrel wall when the barrel is fired. By installing it in an area where the area and volume of material is controlled to an exact size, very accurate measurement of the internal pressure is possible.

LUP testing that uses a lead cylinder crush to determine pressures is usually used for pressures higher than those that black powder guns develop. It is often used to test medium pressure cartridges pressures.

CUP or the copper cylinder crush method is reserved for very high chamber pressures found in modern smokeless cartridge rifles.

I might add that almost all of the tested powder/ball/bullet loads shown in the book show the breech pressures for each load.
For example, did you know that 100 grains of Pyrodex Select loaded into a 28 inch long, .45 caliber, 1:48 twist barrel under a Buffalo HP Conical 325 grain bullet will produce a breech pressure of 29,300 psi? That my friends is some very serious pressure. Even a 60 grain load of this powder in this barrel/bullet combination produced a pressure of 17,000 psi.

The same barrel shooting a patched roundball over 60 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder produced a pressure of 11,300 psi.

Zonie, I don't think we looking at the same book. On pages 82-85 of my Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 13th printing, 1999, they clearly show several pictures of the breech plug piston and crusher anvil used.
On pg. 85 they discuss using both lead and copper crushers and the transition from one to another.
Furthermore... all the data I see in this book starts in LUP and goes up to CUP.

IIRC, the piezo system uses a strain gauge, no where is it mentioned in this manual that i can see.

What gives?

 

[Zonie]

Your book with a copyright date of 1999 is a First Edition. My book is a Second Edition with a copyright date of 2001.

I find it hard to believe they would re-do all of the tests for the 2nd edition but I quoted verbatim from my book.

I think your book also shows some powder loads using 4F powder? In the 2nd edition they removed any reference to 4F powder except to say it was used for priming flintlocks.

 

[Eterry]

My handbook was copyrighted in 1975, it's 13th edition was published in 1999.

So the info was 26 yrs old when they released the new data.

The only bullets listed are RB and conicals and minies that Lyman made molds for.

FfffG was used only in revolver loads, fffg in rifles up to 54 caliber, ffg in 58, 75, 20ga and 12ga.

I guess i need to get a copy of the new manual to stay up to date.

I've read mine cover to cover several times, and poured over the ballistic tables.

 

[glidingdoc]

Hi Guys,
You are all obviously very much more expert than me so I hope you don't mind me picking your brains. What load of what quality of black powder should I use in a Perdersoli Brown Bess both with patch and ball and also with BB shot as I hope to use it as a shotgun. I would very much appreciate your advice.
Steve. (From England).
PS Sorry about our Ambassador!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

STEVE!
Right, Mate,...
Consider the Bess as a shotgun. So consider drams of powder and the weight of the projectile or the shot column.
80 grains of 2F is pretty much 3 drams of powder. A .715 ball is 550 grains, so that's 1¼ ounces. So that's a pretty good load out to 50 yards.
A dozen buckshot is roughly 1½ ounces of shot, and with a 80 grain load that's pretty good to 25 yards.
A buck and ball load, a round ball plus three buckshot is 1⅝ load on top of the powder.

I hope this helps.

LD

 

[Zonie]

glidingdoc:
If you haven't checked out our Smoothbore section, by all means do it. There is a massive amount of information in that section telling people more than they would ever want to know about the Brown Bess.

 

[glidingdoc]

Thank you for your very kind advice