Felt Recoil: Black Powder vs. Smokless

[worker11811]

I've been a shooter since I was a kid. I'm used to shooting all kinds of guns. Felt recoil from most guns isn't a problem with me.

Sure, a high power bolt action rifle kicks a lot but, as far as I'm concerned, that's part of the game. Either you suck it up and take it like a man or you give up and go shoot BB guns!

But I just had a chance to shoot muzzle loaders for the first time in a long while and I noticed something.

The recoil from a black powder rifle doesn't seem nearly as bad as I once imagined it to be.

I would say that the recoil from the .50 cal Hawken I recently shot, using a heavy Maxi-Ball with 90 gr. of powder behind it was no worse than a 20 ga. shotgun with light game loads. As a matter of fact, I think the .50 cal. was nicer to shoot.

Here's the reason why. The shotgun, using smokeless powder packs a pretty sharp punch. But, because the black powder gun has a slower ignition the force of the recoil, even though it is greater, is spread out over a longer period of time.

In other words, a black powder gun feels like somebody giving me a good, hard shove whereas a gun with smokeless feels like a punch in the shoulder.

How do you guys characterize the difference?

 

[Tkendrick]

Could be.

I used to think pretty much the same way until I started shooting BP loads out of my Colt SAA. Full bore BP loads are brutal compared to smokeless loads, even though they aren't as "hot".

But I have had this discussion with others over the years.

Most muzzle-loading rifles, especially the traditional types, were designed to be more shooter friendly IMHO, than the later cartridge guns which are more or less one size fits all. Which means in other words that none of them really fit anyone, unless your just the right size. I can't shoot a Ruger bolt gun comfortably, no matter what caliber.

My thinking is that felt recoil is 10% load and 90% how the gun fits you.

 

[Walks with fire]

The brand of powder makes a big difference in recoil as well. Goex 2f is much softer than Goex 3f under a conical; Swiss 2f has some thump and Swiss 3f will get your attention.

With any black powder load and lead ball or conical; accuracy is the goal; not velocity. It took me a while but I am starting to reduce charges in my ball guns. Recoil is mild and penetration is actually better under 100 yards.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I'am kinda new to this muzzleloader stuff but the recoil from a load of 2 FF is more like a push compared to the same load of 3FF. More felt recoil from the 3FF. Stock design has a lot to do with it. My TC will slap me in the cheek bone and makes you think before you pull the trigger. :hmm:
Got a .32 that feels like a BB gun.
Got a M1A that I can burn off 200 rounds and never give it a second thought. :grin: It all takes getting use to. :wink: Good stock design makes you go back for more! :thumbsup:

 

[bart_anastasi]

Black powder works best (most effeicntly) at 7,000 lbs of pressure. In a 50 cal that would be roughly 80 grains of 2f with a 175 grain bullet. Regardless you will never get the pressures listed below with a ML.

My Speer reloaders manual tells me a modern 30-30 works at 38,000 lbs pressure and a 30-06 at 50,000 lbs.

In my manual I seem to remember that a 30 30 and a 50 cal BP rifle both shoot a 170 grain ish bullet at 2200 fps.

Modern powders burn way hotter that is at much higher temps as well.

The difference in what you feel as recoile should be that the acceleration of a modern firearm happens in a shorter distance in the barrel. With a modern powder the bullet in the above example might have reached (neared) its 2200 fps within 10 to 15 inches of travel down a barrel. The Bp charge would have reached its top speed after 25 or more inches of acceleration.

You have accelarated the bullet to the same speed but the distance traveled to reach that speed is longer.

And with lower working pressure.

 

[shortbow]

Yep. If you look at pressure curve diagrams for BP and smokeless, you will see that the smokeless spikes right quick, while the BP has a nice gentle curve.

 

[DVanVorous]

Pressure spike is higher and quicker with smokeless. Higher chamber pressures translate to a higher force to the rear (recoil) like other folks have noted. BUT the other thing I notice not mentioned is that a typical Traditional big game ML tends to weigh a tad more than a smokeless counterpart, as much as 4 lb in some cases. In my book that extra weight acts a a sort of buffer... :wink:

Keep yer powder dry,
D.

 

[nw_hunter]

All of the above, and I think the weight of the weapon is a huge factor.One of the hardest kicking guns I ever owned, was an old Mossberg 12 ga shotgun, in a bolt action.A real light weight, and kicked like a white nosed,long eared, Missouri mule. :surrender:

 

[Rikeman]

My last time out to the range, I was shooting 80grains of 777 2f out of my .54 Hawken. It has a brass butt plate. I can shoot all day long with that rifle with no problem at all.

At the end of the day I decided to put a few rounds through my 1947 topper 12 ga breech loader. No recoil pad. Only takes a few shots out of that sucker to feel your shoulder for the rest of the week.

 

[Many Klatch]

I can shoot my Brown Bess all day with 90grains of 2F with shot or round ball and not get a bruise, but I don't think I can do that with a modern breakaction shotgun without some kind of protection.

I tell people it's the difference between a shove and smack when trying to describe the difference between blackpowder and smokeless.

Many Klatch

 

[Rebel]

I can shoot .690 rd balls out of my lightweight T/C New Englander .12 over 100 grs of 3f powder and it doesn't bother me. But fire just one shot out of my old H&R single shot .12 ga and it hurts for days. There is definately a difference in the felt recoil

 

[worker11811]

I'm glad we seem to think alike about this.

I've been hearing a lot of :yakyak: and even more :bull: from people saying things about shooting muzzle loaders. I try to tell them the difference but people don't believe me.

I tell them the difference between black powder and smokless is a lot like the difference between a locomotive and a Ferrari in a drag race. The Ferrari is a lot faster off the line but, once the loco gets up to speed it's a whole lot harder to stop!

More and more, I'm starting to think that people will just believe what they want to believe, no matter what the facts really are. :shake:

 

[shearej]

I do know the type of bullet I'm shooting makes a big difference as well. A .50 cal round ball is pretty mild, but put a 385 grain Great Plains Bullet over that same powder charge and you'll notice a difference. At least my shoulder sure does! I haven't experimented much with Goex, mostly just 777 to date. I am curious to try the Goex and see what differences I notice. Next range visit....

 

[Rebel]

NW Hunter got some 420 gr conicals for a .50 cal. We shot some of them the other day between rain storms. I shot some out of my lightweight New Englander rifle and they didn't bother me with 80 grs of Pyrodex P. They are a long conical and should give real good pentration on elk and other Big game. Lyman Shocker's are what they were.

 

[Napper]

Not sure what all the fuss is about! I like guns that kick they arn't much fun to shoot if they doin't let you know that you pulled the trigger on somthing. I have shoot all the modorn big boers 458 416 and the one that kicked the most and was the most fun to shoot was my T/C 58 cal big bore with 115 of 2f and 560 maxie really let you know that you shoot somthing wish I still had it. started to shoot bad and I couldn't get it to grope any more so sold it I think that it was packed with bore butter as the rifling was looking like it was wore out.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tom Norton: You are the kind of shooter I like to shoot against in competition. You will beat yourself every time, by shooting a heavier load than is needed, or is accurate in your gun.

The next time you have a T/C anything, don't follow those booklet directions about " seasoning " the barrel. You don't season steel; you season cast iron skillets! You threw a perfectly good barrel, away, or rather, sold it. All it needed was a good cleaning with a bore brush, hot water, and soap to get out all the caked " bore Butter " you left in the barrel by not cleaning it properly each time.

 

[Napper]

mabe but I always used hot water to clean my gun when I got home and as for not hitting anything the rifle shot into less the 2" at 75 yards for years. I didn't use to much powder just what the gun wanted to shoot well. Tom

 

[worker11811]

the one that kicked the most and was the most fun to shoot was my T/C 58 cal big bore with 115 of 2f and 560 maxie

Holy SMOKE! Do you have to get clearance from the FAA before you launch one of those things?! :grin:

I did say that I thought people who are afraid of recoil should give up and go shoot BB guns!

 

[Dphar]

Yep. If you look at pressure curve diagrams for BP and smokeless, you will see that the smokeless spikes right quick, while the BP has a nice gentle curve.

Try shooting bore sized or slightly smaller lead bullets with smokeless (in a breech loader of course). The smokeless pressure curve is steep but initial acceleration does not reflect this.

I once fired a 44-40 Colt SAA with the barrel removed just the cylinder. With Unique (IIRC its been about 30 years) the bullet would bounce off a 3/4 particle board. With a full case of BP it would penetrate one and nearly the second.
BP actually produces faster initial acceleration than smokeless.
Thus it is possible to shoot bullet that are actually under bore size with relatively low pressure black with no gas cutting and pretty good to excellent accuracy.
I was turning the barrel on the 44 to get is to shoot to the sights. In the process I wondered about the old "myth" that people used to screw the barrels from SAAs to use as short range hideout guns. With the barrel installed the unique load made about 900-1000 fps IIRC. About BP velocity for a 44-40.
If you think BP makes less or softer recoil load a 45-70 with BP, all that will fit behind the bullet, drop tubed with 1/16" compression. Check velocity. Load 4759 or 4198 to the same velocity. Not recoil. BP will produce more felt recoil, partly due to the increased projectile weight that includes a significant portion of the powder charge.

Dan