Ferguson rifle

[mhb]

I just acquired one of the Narragansett reproductions of the Ferguson rifle - #035 of their limited production. It has been fired, but is in practically new condition inside and out - and I certainly plan to shoot it.
My questions, for anyone who has experience with one of these, are:
What powder charge do you use to fill the chamber without wasting powder?
Do you lubricate the ball, and, if so, with what lube (I suspect Lee Liquid Alox would be a good choice).
What lubrication do you use for the breechblock threads, and what is your experience with the effects of fouling as firing progresses?
Any tips/tricks or other advice for the management of this rifle?
I know that this rifle is not typical of the 'Traditional' muzzleloading arms, being a breechloader and all, but it sure as hell is historic, is a flintlock, and can, if necessary, be loaded from the muzzle.
All input appreciated!

mhb - MIke

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You should buy Ricky Robert and Bryan Brown's little book "Every Insult and Indignity" which is a short history of the rifle and Ferguson and it describes their intensive experiments with powder, ball, and lubrication. Use a mix of beeswax and either mutton tallow or Crisco melted together to lubricate the threads. Dip the screw plug into the warm melted wax and tallow mix. Also dip the balls into melted beeswax. I am not sure how consistent TRS was in making Ferguson actions. My powder chamber cannot accept more than 55gr of 3F Swiss powder behind a 0.648 ball before spilling over. Spilling powder into the upper threads will bind the screw plug so you have to load carefully with a charge that fits into the powder chamber. Brown and Roberts shoot carbine ball (0.615), which allows more powder but I cannot get any accuracy with that ball. For me, at 80 yards, 0.648 ball with 55gr of Swiss powder is very accurate but I suspect my powder chamber is smaller than the original ordnance rifles.

dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

My powder chamber cannot accept more than 55gr of 3F Swiss powder behind a 0.648 ball before spilling over.

Wasn't that a built in design feature to prevent overloading. It cut off the charge when breech is closed. I dunno :idunno: from experience but do seem to recall reading that.

Edit: P.S. don't forget all that gunking might be a major reason why the rifle design did not last long and was not considered successful.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Getting the tolerances tight enough to seal off the breech allowed significant blow by at the breech allowed way too much fouling (gunking) of the breech. It was the opening of the tolerances that made the Hall breech loading rifle less effective.

You think that the jet of flame from the touch hole of a flint lock is disconcerting, think of flames erupting from all around the top of the breech.

 

[mhb]

Thanks, Dave! I appreciate the info. I do have the proper .648" mold (the groove diameter is .645"), and spent an hour casting bullets this morning. I'll lubricate the breech screw and bullets, and, weather permitting, shoot the rifle tomorrow.

mhb - MIke

 

[dave_person]

Hi Frank,
Yes, the fixed powder chamber does prevent over filling but when looking at the actual Ferguson patent drawings, it is clear that my powder chamber is short. However, I was also informed that the patent drawings do not correspond accurately to what was actually built by ordnance. This summer I may have the opportunity to closely examine and measure the Ferguson rifle at the Morristown Museum and I plan to measure the chamber. I've shot several hundred rounds through my Ferguson and it performs very well without fouling up until after 20-30 shots. Bryan Brown demonstrated up to 60-70 shots without any fouling issues. The cardinal sin is spilling powder into the upper threads. That residue will lock up the breech in just a few shots. Therefore, you never, ever fill the chamber until it overflows. Determine the charge that fits easily into the chamber behind the ball and pre-measure those charges into cartridge or plastic tubes before going out to shoot. Push the beeswax lubed ball into the chamber with your pinky, then carefully pour in powder without spilling. Close the breech and prime. The Ferguson rifle was a military failure not because of the breech and powder fouling but because the stock was fragile behind the lock and around the breech. It seems many and maybe most broke during service.

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

I know it is off topic, but you mentioned the Hall. We had a gentleman shooting an original percussion Hall at the local range a couple of weeks ago. Talk about smoke and fire in your face! He had recently purchased it and does re-enacting.

I regret not getting pictures, but was acting as RSO and had other responsibilities.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Hi Frank,
Yes, the fixed powder chamber does prevent over filling but when looking at the actual Ferguson patent drawings, it is clear that my powder chamber is short. However, I was also informed that the patent drawings do not correspond accurately to what was actually built by ordnance. This summer I may have the opportunity to closely examine and measure the Ferguson rifle at the Morristown Museum and I plan to measure the chamber. I've shot several hundred rounds through my Ferguson and it performs very well without fouling up until after 20-30 shots. Bryan Brown demonstrated up to 60-70 shots without any fouling issues. The cardinal sin is spilling powder into the upper threads. That residue will lock up the breech in just a few shots. Therefore, you never, ever fill the chamber until it overflows. Determine the charge that fits easily into the chamber behind the ball and pre-measure those charges into cartridge or plastic tubes before going out to shoot. Push the beeswax lubed ball into the chamber with your pinky, then carefully pour in powder without spilling. Close the breech and prime. The Ferguson rifle was a military failure not because of the breech and powder fouling but because the stock was fragile behind the lock and around the breech. It seems many and maybe most broke during service.

dave

Thanks. Interesting information. The Ferguson rifle certainly played a part in our history. Even though, technically, a breech loader, I have no problem with it being discussed here. I have only seen one or two from a distance. Would love to see yours and an original.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I know it is off topic, but you mentioned the Hall. We had a gentleman shooting an original percussion Hall at the local range a couple of weeks ago. Talk about smoke and fire in your face! He had recently purchased it and does re-enacting.

I regret not getting pictures, but was acting as RSO and had other responsibilities.

Lots of experimental guns through history. The College of the Ozarks at Point Lookout, MO, near Branson, has a gun in it's safe I was allowed to examine. It is a CW rifled musket that resembles a more modern bolt action shotgun. Multiple balls and charges were loaded into it, from the muzzle. In use after each shot the 'bolt' was worked and a new round was brought up for firing. It never caught on for regular use. I suspect chain fires and gunking were the issues.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The Ferguson is not a muzzle loader, but I think we should allow discussion of these, Halls, Scandinavian Kammerladders, Lorenzoni's, Colliers, and other similar antique sorts of guns. Heck, there were even wheel locks going back to 1620 that used primitive cartridges. I realize it's a slippery slope, and something of a gray line, but if the ignition system is not contemporary to what we do today, it ought to be fair game for discussion here.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Moderators:FWIW whenever I've posted pictures or info of original Hall black powder rifles ... my posts get moved to the x forum.

They ARE crucial in the development spanning flintlocks (LAST in the lineage) to percussion arms (FIRST military arm converted and issued as a percussion arm.

Adding to that, they were issued with ramrods AND would be loaded as a true muzzleloader if/when the tilting breech became soooooo fouled.

To me, such an important arm should not be ignored.

Can't we find a better Forum to post such an important "PRE-brass/copper cartridge" BP rifle in? I also see Sharps BP paper cartridge arms and loads discussed in the Percussion forums ...

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

What powder charge do you use to fill the chamber without wasting powder?

If FFg doesn't fill the chamber ... I'd use 1Fg, that'll fill it and it will be soft shooting.

Do you lubricate the ball, and, if so, with what lube (I suspect Lee Liquid Alox would be a good choice).

Lee Alox is NOT the best choice for BP arms. I would use a 3 or 4 to 1 mix of olive oil to beeswax. Thicker in hotter weather.

What lubrication do you use for the breechblock threads, and what is your experience with the effects of fouling as firing progresses?

I'd use a good modern synthetic for such an expensive arm, but the same lube used for the ball should suffice for a day's shootin' session.

I'm jealous for 2 reasons ... #1 You have one and I don't (still looking ...) and #2 Anytime I post about my original Hall BP breech loading rifles (circa 1811 to 1841) ... the posts get banished to the "Non-Muzzleloading Forum".

Claude was the big proponent of keeping the main forums strictly for BP arms loaded by the muzzle (Note that the Hall rifles were issued with a ramrod and could be loaded from the muzzle [1st 2 are counter-bored for this expressed purpose] if/when the breech got too clogged up with BP fouling).

And while I certainly can't disagree with Claude's intention, whereas we do have a PRE-Flintlock Forum, I'd suggest that we could also use a POST-Flintlock Forum, for the discussion of arms development BEFORE the advent of brass or copper cartridge percussion rifles; circa 1811 to 1850 ... to include the Hall rifles and the Sharps paper cartridge "paper cutter" Percussion rifles. There were even European models that I'm sure others would be interested in.

 

[mhb]

'Smoothie:
Thanks for the input.
My question about the powder charge was aimed at the amount, rather than type or granulation of the powder: it is easy enough to fill the chamber to overflowing and cut off the excess by closing the breech, but that seems unnecessarily wasteful.
Your comments on lubrication are appreciated.
I was aware of the original policy of excluding other than true muzzleloading arms from discussion, but caveated my original post - and this sub-forum is 'Flintlock Rifles', which the Ferguson certainly is...

mhb - MIke

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The Ferguson is not a Hall's and unfortunately Smoothie's advice is not going to work well for a Ferguson. You will need 3f powder and Swiss is the best. You have a limited powder chamber and need all the power you can get from fast burning powder. The originals used "double strength super fine" powder from Germany and Swiss 3f may be as close as you can get today. The beeswax and tallow or Crisco mix is the closest to what Ferguson used and it remains in the threads and lubricates for a long time, even when mixed with powder fouling. As I stated before, DO NOT fill the chamber to overflowing and then wipe off the excess by closing the breech. Perhaps, only those folks who actually shoot Fergusons understand this. The plug is tapered and only tightens to seal the gas in the threads above the chamber. Below the chamber, the threads have a bit of slop that accommodates any fouling that goes down. Only the top threads are at risk of binding and if you spill powder into those threads, your breech will bind after just a few shots.

dave

 

[George]

It is fascinating to me that the concept of a sort of breech loading weapon used in the Ferguson rifle was apparently an old one, not original to Ferguson.

From Espingarda Perfeyta, [The Perfect Gun], Cesar Fiosconi & Jordam Guserio, 1718, Portugal. Published in 1718, but they are describing ideas worked out by the "old masters" in attempts to improve guns, so possibly in late 17th century.

pg. 340 "Others introduced the bullet under the trigger guard, which closes the entrance with a screw, or thread, advising that the fire so expelled would go out by a hole even narrower than half the bore of the barrel, in which part it would not fit, and since the fire being compressed was prevented from leaving, it would multiply its forces, increasing such fury against the bullet that it would double its range."

and

pg. 341 "Others invented screw-barrel pistols, in which the bullet rests on the gunpowder, and does not fit into the barrel forward, and thus united it shoots far, penetrating much more than other pistols, which have an equal bore to the barrel.”

Spence

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is really not clear what exactly Ferguson invented. The screw breech going all the way through the barrel existed during the late 17th century and Ferguson basically copied Isaac de la Chaumette's design from the 1720s. In fact, if he built his rifles using the solid iron actions (like screw barrel pistols of the time) used by de la Chaumette, he may have had a lot more success with the rifle as a military weapon. However, it would e very expensive to make.

dave

 

[George]

You are probably familiar with this:

THE FERGUSON RIFLE AND ITS ORIGINS
By W. Keith Neal
http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B024_neal.pdf

Spence

 

[tafile]

Get Ricky Roberts and Bryan Browns book, good info and read.
Using their lube on breech and bullets, so far haven't got more than 34 shots before breech fouled up.
Swiss 3F is the powder to use, really notice the difference.
Use 65 grains, when I close the breech just enough powder to sweep into the pan. Lock is very reliable.
You'll have a lot of fun, and probably end up being covered by powder residue.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You may get more than 34 if you don't overfill the chamber and sweep excess powder into the pan. With 0.648 ball, I cannot get more than 55 or so grains of powder behind it. That is why I believe specs on TRS made actions vary with the earlier actions built for Narragansett having bigger chambers.

dave

 

[tafile]

Use the .615 ball, the lube makes all the difference. Tried TOW mink oil lube for a dozen or so shots, scattered balls all over the place.Back to the Fergi-lube, things tightened up.
Will try keeping the upper threads clear of powder, just cool to sweep the extra powder into the pan.