smoothshooter
50 Cal.
Why not have the powder chamber lengthened by a quarter inch or maybe longer?
Should be a simple operation for a decent machinist.
Should be a simple operation for a decent machinist.
Ferguson rifle
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Flintfan69
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Water Sheltie said:
+1
The .615 (British carbine size) ball is the correct one to use. At 100 yards I can constantly make one ragged hole using 3F Swiss and the beeswax tallow lube. Mine is an absolute tack driver.
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Hi,
With a 0.615 ball lubed with beeswax and 3F Swiss powder, my Ferguson cannot do better than a 9" group at 50 yards from a bench. With a 0.648 ball it is a tack driver. I've spoken with Bryan Brown about this and we suspect that TRS barreled Ferguson actions vary somewhat.
dave
With a 0.615 ball lubed with beeswax and 3F Swiss powder, my Ferguson cannot do better than a 9" group at 50 yards from a bench. With a 0.648 ball it is a tack driver. I've spoken with Bryan Brown about this and we suspect that TRS barreled Ferguson actions vary somewhat.
dave
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Hi,
That is what I intend to do but first I am going to measure an actual original ordnance Ferguson to find out what the chamber dimensions should be.
dave
That is what I intend to do but first I am going to measure an actual original ordnance Ferguson to find out what the chamber dimensions should be.
dave
mhb
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Thanks, all, for the additional input! The groove diameter of my barrel is .645", which is the nominal for the rifle, I believe. I can't imagine that a .615" ball would shoot very well in such a barrel, and am sure that Ferguson's intent and practice was the use of a full groove-diameter (or slightly larger) ball, to eliminate windage.
It would be interesting to know the dimensions and, thereby, the powder capacity of an original Ferguson, but it appears the only way to obtain such a measurement would require removal of the breechplug (also necessary for any alteration of the chamber), and I can't imagine any holder of an original permitting that.
mhb - MIke
It would be interesting to know the dimensions and, thereby, the powder capacity of an original Ferguson, but it appears the only way to obtain such a measurement would require removal of the breechplug (also necessary for any alteration of the chamber), and I can't imagine any holder of an original permitting that.
mhb - MIke
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Hi Mike,
Based on research by Dewitt Bailey and others, I think it is pretty clear that Ferguson meant the rifle to shoot a 0.615 ball, which was the standard carbine ammunition of the time. Why design a rifle that required a unique ball, particularly when millions of carbine rounds were being produced? My rifle is also 0.645" across grooves, however, it may be that some of the TRS barrels deviate from the originals. The bullet fits against a shoulder in the chamber and like a modern gun, when the charge blows, the ball expands into the grooves. However, on my rifle it is clear the 0.615 ball suffers from serious windage. It would be interesting to try 0.625 balls but the 0.648s work well. You have to do some testing to see which works best. As I stated previously, I suspect there is variation in the TRS barrels and breeches.
dave
Based on research by Dewitt Bailey and others, I think it is pretty clear that Ferguson meant the rifle to shoot a 0.615 ball, which was the standard carbine ammunition of the time. Why design a rifle that required a unique ball, particularly when millions of carbine rounds were being produced? My rifle is also 0.645" across grooves, however, it may be that some of the TRS barrels deviate from the originals. The bullet fits against a shoulder in the chamber and like a modern gun, when the charge blows, the ball expands into the grooves. However, on my rifle it is clear the 0.615 ball suffers from serious windage. It would be interesting to try 0.625 balls but the 0.648s work well. You have to do some testing to see which works best. As I stated previously, I suspect there is variation in the TRS barrels and breeches.
dave
mhb
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Dave, et.al.:
Thanks for the additional input, though the recommendations are somewhat contradictory.
I was hoping someone would have a historical reference on the original specifications as stated by Ferguson, himself.
My own experience with undersized bullets in any rifled arm is that they simply don't shoot as well as full groove-diameter bullets.
I am willing to concede that heavy, cylindrical bullets will slug-up ahead of a suitable charge of BP, but have proved to my own satisfaction that full diameter bullets shoot best. Roundballs have the shortest bearing surface of all bullet types, less mass forward of the bearing surface, and are unlikely to slug-up under any circumstances. The excess windage not only permits severe escape of gas around the ball, but also scouring of the bearing surface by molten powder residue solids (remember that more than half of the combustion products of BP are solids).
Then, too, it seems significant that screw-barreled breechloaders used a full-diameter or slightly oversized ball.
The Rapine mold which came with the rifle casts a .650" ball, and the Lyman is .648:- I really think that such bullets MUST shoot better than any undersized ones, and am going to work with them until convinced that they will not shoot.
Thanks again, all;
mhb - MIke
Thanks for the additional input, though the recommendations are somewhat contradictory.
I was hoping someone would have a historical reference on the original specifications as stated by Ferguson, himself.
My own experience with undersized bullets in any rifled arm is that they simply don't shoot as well as full groove-diameter bullets.
I am willing to concede that heavy, cylindrical bullets will slug-up ahead of a suitable charge of BP, but have proved to my own satisfaction that full diameter bullets shoot best. Roundballs have the shortest bearing surface of all bullet types, less mass forward of the bearing surface, and are unlikely to slug-up under any circumstances. The excess windage not only permits severe escape of gas around the ball, but also scouring of the bearing surface by molten powder residue solids (remember that more than half of the combustion products of BP are solids).
Then, too, it seems significant that screw-barreled breechloaders used a full-diameter or slightly oversized ball.
The Rapine mold which came with the rifle casts a .650" ball, and the Lyman is .648:- I really think that such bullets MUST shoot better than any undersized ones, and am going to work with them until convinced that they will not shoot.
Thanks again, all;
mhb - MIke
Flintfan69
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Read British Military Flintlock Rifles, 1740-1840 by Dewitt Bailey.
There is a long chapter on the development of the Ferguson rifle including primary sources regarding ammunition. My bore measures the same as the measurements others have posted(and the same as measurements taken from original rifles), and with the historically correct .615 ball it the most accurate rifle I own.
As others have mentioned, differences may have something to do with chamber measurements and/or shape (i.e. forcing cone angle). The main point is to experiment with different sized balls and pick the one that works best in your rifle.
Powder does make a big difference as well. 3F Swiss works the best in mine. I found 3F Goex to be accurate, but printed a whole foot lower at 100 yards.
There is a long chapter on the development of the Ferguson rifle including primary sources regarding ammunition. My bore measures the same as the measurements others have posted(and the same as measurements taken from original rifles), and with the historically correct .615 ball it the most accurate rifle I own.
As others have mentioned, differences may have something to do with chamber measurements and/or shape (i.e. forcing cone angle). The main point is to experiment with different sized balls and pick the one that works best in your rifle.
Powder does make a big difference as well. 3F Swiss works the best in mine. I found 3F Goex to be accurate, but printed a whole foot lower at 100 yards.
Flintfan69
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mhb said:
My book is about 200 miles away at the moment, so I will try recite what I can by memory.
The rifle was determined to use a standard carbine ball (.615). All military arms had to conform to standard ammunition which was determined by the Board of Ordinance. This standardized the size of pistol, carbine, and musket ball sizes throughout the British military.
The Ferguson rifle was also determined to use "superfine double strength" powder. The exact composition and granulation of this powder is lost to history, but it was obviously a higher grade of powder than standard musket powder, and probably similar to our modern "sporting" powders like Swiss and Olde Eynsford by Goex.
As to lube, I will have to wait until I can get my hands on my book again to refresh my memory on that subject. I can't remember if any of the primary sources bring up that topic or not.
Unfortunately topics such as lubes and cleaning may have been so common place and mundane, as to not bear mentioning in original correspondence. Maybe someone who has the book in hand can chime in.
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Hi,
Bailey and other authors did not find any documentation on the lube but it apparently was considered important by Ferguson. Ernie Cowan, Bryan Brown, and Ricky Roberts suggest the lube was beeswax mixed with mutton tallow. They confirmed that the lube works through actually firing Ferguson replicas. A place to start is 50% beeswax and 50% tallow. Brown and Roberts also indicate that Crisco works instead of tallow. The optimum mix may vary a little depending on temp. For example, more tallow or Crisco in colder climes. Melt the mix together and then dip the breech plug into it. Then screw the plug into the rifle while the lube is still warm. Make sure the sprue is cut flush on the bullets and then dip them either into the warm mix or just melted beeswax. Let them cool and then put them in your bullet bag. If you do not spill powder into the upper threads of the plug, the lube should keep things working for many shots. I can get about 40 rounds off if I am careful about loading. Bryan Brown claims 60 or more.
dave
Bailey and other authors did not find any documentation on the lube but it apparently was considered important by Ferguson. Ernie Cowan, Bryan Brown, and Ricky Roberts suggest the lube was beeswax mixed with mutton tallow. They confirmed that the lube works through actually firing Ferguson replicas. A place to start is 50% beeswax and 50% tallow. Brown and Roberts also indicate that Crisco works instead of tallow. The optimum mix may vary a little depending on temp. For example, more tallow or Crisco in colder climes. Melt the mix together and then dip the breech plug into it. Then screw the plug into the rifle while the lube is still warm. Make sure the sprue is cut flush on the bullets and then dip them either into the warm mix or just melted beeswax. Let them cool and then put them in your bullet bag. If you do not spill powder into the upper threads of the plug, the lube should keep things working for many shots. I can get about 40 rounds off if I am careful about loading. Bryan Brown claims 60 or more.
dave
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How they made the Ferguson barrels in rather large quantities with the necessary precision and how they used them fascinates me as well.
I imagine they must have had/used some pretty specific Go and No Go gages for the Barrel Diameters, before they were rifled.
I also imagine it would have been at least a good idea, if not a necessity, that a precision hole gage was used to check ball diameters to ensure the balls would drop through the gage. A ball that was out of the average and on the large size, ran the risk of getting stuck in the bore and in the worst case scenario, "blowing up" in the user's face.
Gus
I imagine they must have had/used some pretty specific Go and No Go gages for the Barrel Diameters, before they were rifled.
I also imagine it would have been at least a good idea, if not a necessity, that a precision hole gage was used to check ball diameters to ensure the balls would drop through the gage. A ball that was out of the average and on the large size, ran the risk of getting stuck in the bore and in the worst case scenario, "blowing up" in the user's face.
Gus
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Hi Gus,
Yes, that is a great question. Unfortunately, there are only 2 ordnance Ferguson's that survived and that is too small a sample to determine levels of variation in manufacture. However, when you think of how the British ordnance systems managed to repeatedly produce arms that could be repaired with a system of replacement parts with minimal hand fitting, it makes you appreciate the precision of jigs and gauges. I am an ardent admirer of the capacity of government arsenals and associated manufacturers to outfit the vast armies of the 18th century. It is a testament to human skill. Most folks alive today just don't get what it was like during the pre-industrial age. We forget how human skill filled in for modern machinery and robotics to produce arms and also wonderful objects that shout - "handmade by a skilled human".
dave
Yes, that is a great question. Unfortunately, there are only 2 ordnance Ferguson's that survived and that is too small a sample to determine levels of variation in manufacture. However, when you think of how the British ordnance systems managed to repeatedly produce arms that could be repaired with a system of replacement parts with minimal hand fitting, it makes you appreciate the precision of jigs and gauges. I am an ardent admirer of the capacity of government arsenals and associated manufacturers to outfit the vast armies of the 18th century. It is a testament to human skill. Most folks alive today just don't get what it was like during the pre-industrial age. We forget how human skill filled in for modern machinery and robotics to produce arms and also wonderful objects that shout - "handmade by a skilled human".
dave
mhb
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Thanks, again, to those responding.
For now, I'm going to experiment and try to find out what actually works best in my rifle. I already use a beeswax/Crisco lube for some of my breechloaders, and will use that.
I'll report results as they are developed.
mhb - MIke
For now, I'm going to experiment and try to find out what actually works best in my rifle. I already use a beeswax/Crisco lube for some of my breechloaders, and will use that.
I'll report results as they are developed.
mhb - MIke
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Though 4 Gunmakers supplied Ferguson Rifles and considering the fact they could not make more than 100 rifles a month (read that somewhere, but I don't remember where) it may be that all the rifle barrels for all the makers were bored, reamed and rifled by just one shop. That would have made it much easier to hold the barrel precision, rather than all four makers doing it.
Also, they did not have a way to precision measure Carbine (or other musket/rifle balls) during the period outside getting it to the closest .010." So it is quite possible, if not probable, that the balls used varied quite a bit in diameter and .615" was actually the largest diameter ball and/or size allowed.
Gus
Also, they did not have a way to precision measure Carbine (or other musket/rifle balls) during the period outside getting it to the closest .010." So it is quite possible, if not probable, that the balls used varied quite a bit in diameter and .615" was actually the largest diameter ball and/or size allowed.
Gus
TerryK
40 Cal.
I have no connection to the sale, but I noticed a new Ferguson action and unfinished stock on gunbroker. It does not look like it has a lock, and to me it seemed pretty expensive (2K.). Again I have no idea of the value or difficulty building one.
The TRS kit is $1800, link = http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_arms/(513).htm
Getting it is another point ... but I just ordered something from there (Tannenberg hand gonne replica) that was IN stock and AT my house not 4-days later, holy cow!
Getting it is another point ... but I just ordered something from there (Tannenberg hand gonne replica) that was IN stock and AT my house not 4-days later, holy cow!
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Never really worry about the time when ordering from TRS, I've had things come quickly and others not so quickly. Do know that if it wasn't for TRS I don't know where I would get them. The Ferguson Rifle parts kit was well worth what I paid for It.
Felix the Cat
40 Cal
Hi Folks,
Sorry to drag this thread back from the February! I am starting out on a Ferguson Carbine build and have been looking around for background.. TRS seems to have moved with uncustomary speed and I have received my bits in less than three months!
I have a bit of figuring out to do with placement of screws etc.. but I'm sure I will be OK.. I live in Edinburgh, Scotland and have the luxury of being able to go and look at the original they have in the Castle.. I have been looking longingly at it since I was a boy..!
One small point, some example on the web have a leather washer fitted below the plug.. is this necessary or just an added feature?
Sorry to drag this thread back from the February! I am starting out on a Ferguson Carbine build and have been looking around for background.. TRS seems to have moved with uncustomary speed and I have received my bits in less than three months!
I have a bit of figuring out to do with placement of screws etc.. but I'm sure I will be OK.. I live in Edinburgh, Scotland and have the luxury of being able to go and look at the original they have in the Castle.. I have been looking longingly at it since I was a boy..!
One small point, some example on the web have a leather washer fitted below the plug.. is this necessary or just an added feature?
