FFF - 3.5F - FFFF : Boom?

[Old Ironsights]

Ok all you (low) tech weenies...

At what point does 3F become 4F where it becomes too dangerous to shoot as a main charge?

3FG = .84mm ””.29mm / .0330in - .0114in
4FG = .42mm ””.15mm / .0165in - .0059in

Note that there is a fairly large overlap in grain size from the middle of the 3F range to the middle of the 4F range.

Remember when I sifted a variety of powders? I was using a 30-mesh screen (.0233 hold) which lead to things like 20% to 80% "failure" - i.e. up to 80% of the granulation went into the "4F" pile.

Admittedly, that meant that all grains from nominal .0232 to .0166, which "should" be considered 3F got sifted out, but still...

Now a 40 mesh screen will hold down to .0120 - .0150 depending on (practical) wire size.

Given that 4F can be as large as .0165, would you consider .0120 "3F" (still in the 3F granulation range) safe as a main charge?

 

[Russianblood]

I think you are putting too much thought into it. 4f can be used as a main charge as long as you use a very light main charge.
The most important thing is to find out what your gun likes as an optimum load and use it, be it 1f, 2f or 3f.

 

[shmrck1]

Old Ironsights,
Let me get this right,you screen all your b/p before using it! If I buy 3fff or
2ff, I should not believe it is 2ff or 3fff but let you screen it, so I know for sure....DUH
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[Snuffy]

Leading
patch incineration
bore pressure increases
recoil increases
reduced accuracy

.... are all a piece of the pie playing with FFFF powder charges in 50+ caliber rifles.

If you want to use-up remaining FFFF in those calibers, use 10 grains at a time with each bullet -- then pour the rest (hypothetical 60 gr) with the same-brand of powder in FF or FFF.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Old Ironsights,
Let me get this right,you screen all your b/p before using it! If I buy 3fff or
2ff, I should not believe it is 2ff or 3fff but let you screen it, so I know for sure....DUH
snake-eyes :hmm:

Well, since I have fairly conclusively found that a pound of 3F can have as much at 12oz of 4F in it, I sometimes wonder...

I know for a fact that screened/consistantly granulated powder shoots cleaner and more consistantly than powder with a lot of or an unquantiafiable amount of 4F/fines in it.

Point is, I doon't want to shoot 4F as a main charge, I'm just curious as to where the 4F "cutoff" is.

As it stands, I've got about 8 lb of .0232 & finer "4F" bottled up and will likely have about 20lbs by the time I get all the .0233+ 3F sifted out.

With that much 4F I may have to do a little re-corning...

 

[RC]

I'm not a real hi/lo tech type weenie but, my thought is even if I'm only payin $6.75 lb. for lidu 3 fff powder and I gotta sift it to get 12 ounces of 4ffff out it so I can shoot the remaining 4 ounces....unless your getting 12 oz. out the whole 25 lbs.???(then why worry?) I'd be giving it some DEEP thought..based on your expierence w/ lidu...I'll stick w/ goex 3fff I' ve never had a problem..might be $5-$6 more a lb..but pretty sure thats closer to 16 oz. than 4 oz. but to each there own..good luck!RC

 

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, out of all the brands I've tested, Goex red can is only marginally less fine than Lidu.

I got 12.75 oz of -.0232 Fines from a pound of Lidu and 10.7oz -.0232 Fines from Goex. Only 2oz difference. (compared to KIK & Graf at around 8oz and Swiss at 4oz)

There was no way for me to try the Lidu without buying a whole 25lb bag.

I may try the 2F next time though.

 

[rabjr]

Why not put anything questionable (finer grains)in a can to be used for priming only?

 

[Rebel]

He's going to have to do a LOT of shooting to use up 10 lb of priming powder. I bet some of us Friendly Forum members would be glad to help him with that over abundance of priming powder, wouldn't we? :grin:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Ok all you (low) tech weenies...

At what point does 3F become 4F where it becomes too dangerous to shoot as a main charge?

3FG = .84mm ””.29mm / .0330in - .0114in
4FG = .42mm ””.15mm / .0165in - .0059in

Note that there is a fairly large overlap in grain size from the middle of the 3F range to the middle of the 4F range.

Remember when I sifted a variety of powders? I was using a 30-mesh screen (.0233 hold) which lead to things like 20% to 80% "failure" - i.e. up to 80% of the granulation went into the "4F" pile.

Admittedly, that meant that all grains from nominal .0232 to .0166, which "should" be considered 3F got sifted out, but still...

Now a 40 mesh screen will hold down to .0120 - .0150 depending on (practical) wire size.

Given that 4F can be as large as .0165, would you consider .0120 "3F" (still in the 3F granulation range) safe as a main charge?

Meself, I really don't sweat the small [micro] stuff. To me, it is like proof of the pudding, if it tastes (works] good, then I will eat [use] it.

 

[paco97]

Oh man! You mean I gotta buy a screen to fit in my hunting pouch. Now I gotta get more leather to make a bigger pouch which means more money going out. BTW, how the heck do you screen this stuff in the woods. Not only do I have to worry about aiming properly, with a slight chance of iginition failure, now I've gotta worry if my 2F powder is really 3F or if my 4F priming has too much 3F in it. This is getting overwhelming. I don't know what to do now! :grin: :rotf:

 

[RC]

ole ironsights, I've been around a little while and shot alot,with alot of people,and some are very serious type shooters, always tryin this and tryin that,lookin for that lil edge,but I have never talked too or heard of anyone screening their powder..seeing how it seems you've done this before could you enlighten me on why..I mean is the end result worth the time you spend compared to just shootin out of the can..you got me very curious now...thanks RC

 

[Old Ironsights]

Mostly the curious Lab Rat in me.

I noticed a distinct visual granulation difference between Goex and Swiss. Read here about how much "better" Swiss is, but that many didn't use it because of the price. So I tried Sifting - which the BPCR guys swear by.

Sifting brings the standard deviations in velocity and fouling between Swiss & Goex Red into close proximity.

Obviously, the more 4F/Fines mixed into your granulation, the greater the fouling & pressure deviation.

To me, it's not so much the velocity as the cleanup that makes the difference. So when I'm shooting where/when I can't afford to be mucking with crud, the .0233 3F seems to shoot cleaner and more consistantly than 2F or unsifted powder.

I'm asking all this because I'm considering re-sifting my "4F" to make a batch of .0232 - .0150 "3.5F" for dinking around with and saving my .0233+ 3F for "important" stuff.


Oh, and I use a fair quantity of 4F loading .38s & .357s for small-bore BPCR & general plinking for my Rossi Lever Rifle - so it's not a loss.

 

[Old Ironsights]

BTW, how the heck do you screen this stuff in the woods. I don't know what to do now! :grin: :rotf:

You sift at home. Before you fill your horn. (as if I really needed to say that).

I've been using the Cal-Graf BPCR "Master Screen".

 

[RC]

OLE IRONSIGHTS, Thanks for the explanation,lab stuff..now I don't gotta worry bout doin that siftin thing and buyin sceen,buyin a[url] calculator...learnin[/url] how to use a calculator...buying batteries fer the calculator..phew! lot'sa expense there fer me....BUT if you go and figure somethin out that's gonna help me shoot more better..and it's got anything to do with siften powder,screens or calculators (w/ or w/o batteries!) remind me that I have a hobby already..but that, is for another day.....have a great siften day! :rotf: (used to be a guy hunted deer w/ us, seems he always seen "a siften thumper" come off the snowy hill,gee maybe it was you! :rotf: :thumbsup: RC

 

[renovato]

Well, if'n ya mix the 4f with the 3f, that should dilute it enough to be safe to shoot. 'Course you'd be back where you started before you screened it. :blah:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Good suggestion. And then go to ML shoots, and offer the powder, in small quanties, to any shooter who needs priming powder. Recoup your costs, and make a profit, if you can. Most flinters don't want to buy a whole pound of priming powder. It takes years to use up a pound. For some, it would be a lifetime and more, if they only use their smokepoles to hunt, and never target shoot with the guns. ( That's a shame, BTW).

I have made up priming horns, to offer at blanket shoots, and filled them with 4Fg powder just to get rid of some of the stuff I own! If I were sifting powder and got as many fines as Old Ironsides, I would definitely be finding friends who needed a year or two supply of priming powder, to get rid of all he has. I don't think it would be that hard. Almost all the states have championship shoots, or participate in Levy Garrett matches. There are also big clubs, like at Kalamazoo, Michigan, where lots of MLr's gather each year.

 

[rhwestfall]

and as the horn is bounced around while walking/stumbling in the woods, or as powder is bounced in a powder flask, the granulation becomes finer.... (ffg becomes fffg) Why are we trying to bring the 1800's into 2000+? Aren't we doing this to be back to "simpler times"? Did it matter to those that were depending on it for putting food on the table? This is too funny :rotf:

 

[RC]

and as the horn is bounced around while walking/stumbling in the woods

okay bob,where in the woods did ya see me??? and where do ya think that 7 fffffff stuff came from? my horn! and ya gotta see the priming horn,talk about dust in the wind.............. :rotf: RC

 

[Mad Monk]

Old Ironsights,

2Fg is screened: through 16 mesh, stop on 30 mesh.
3Fg is screened: through 20 mesh, stop on 50 mesh.

At one time 4F was a size range designation. Now it might be more apt to describe 4Fg as process tailings. You will find some of the 4F down in the range of 200 to 250 mesh.