FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era? Un-glazed "Rifle Powder"? Is today's powder dirtier?

[cornstalk]

FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era? Un-glazed "Rifle Powder"? Is today's powder dirtier?

I've been doing research on the history of gun powder during the broader Fur Trade Era. That has spawned a couple of questions.

FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era?
F, FF, and FFF used in firearms in the broader Fur Trade Era is well documented and have what appears to be an interesting timeline of what was purchased when. But so far I've been unable to find any mention of FFFF use in the 1600's, 1700's, or 1800's. Has anyone uncovered mention of FFFF other than it was available (along with FFFFF, FFFFFF, and FFFFFFF)?

Un-glazed Rifle powder?
In the 1600's it seems F and FF were the grades generally purchased with F being the favored. In the 1700's F started to fall away and FFF was added to the mix. For the smoothbores (predominately large caliber) it seems the nod went to FF. As rifles became popular FFF grew in favor until in the late 1700's and early 1800's it was purchased (by the fur companies) in nearly equal amounts as FF.

Interesting was that "Rifle Powder" seems to be first offered as un-glazed in both FF and FFF even though glazed FF and FFF was what was being offered, preferred, and purchased at the time. Why all of a sudden unglazed specifically for "Rifle Powder"? Was it cleaner, leaving less residue in the rifling? Eventually glazed "Rifle Powder" became the preferred powder according to sales records.

And lastly-

Is today's powder dirtier?
I ask this because it sure seems like the DuPont powder I used in the '70's was a lot cleaner then the Goex I use now. I just don't recall having to brush the pan or pick the vent back then like I do now. Of course my memory might not be serving me well. Interested to hear what you other gray-hairs who shot through that era and today have to say.

 

[Grimord]

I have never seen 4F powder mentioned by name during the fur trade times, but "Pan Powder" was often mentioned. I seem to remember when looking thru the manifests of one of the rendezvous that Charles Larpenter listed "Rifle Powder" and "Pan Powder". I don't know if "Pan Powder" was 4f or 3f.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

The source of carbon will determine how dirty the powder is going to be…some carbon sources will have a higher ash content than others. The ash content will determine how “dirty” the powder is when it burns.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Asking this old fellow about how dirty was the powder is a poor way to determine anything. In my youth air had more oxygen and gravity was less powerful. But this is an interesting tread.

 

[cornstalk]

@Rock Home Isle graphite is carbon so the question I guess is "is glazed black powder (graphite) dirtier than black powder that isn't glazed (no graphite)"? Or put a different way does graphite burn dirtier than the charcoal used then or now? I'm assuming here that glazing was done with graphite added and not just with heat as some factories in England did.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

@Rock Home Isle graphite is carbon so the question I guess is "is glazed black powder (graphite) dirtier than black powder that isn't glazed (no graphite)"? Or put a different way does graphite burn dirtier than the charcoal used then or now? I'm assuming here that glazing was done with graphite added and not just with heat as some factories in England did.

No…the amount of fouling left behind will be due to the carbon source material used to make the powder. The graphite should have negligible impact on fouling due to the very small amount of graphite used when making “g” rated powders.

For blackpowder that doesn’t have a graphite coating, you need to have an explosives license. Graphite treated powder requires no license, so I would surmise that graphite coated powder would be measurably less energetic than none graphite treated blackpowder.

But as to dirty or powder that fouls the barrel…that will be based on the ash content of the carbon source material used to make the powder.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era? Un-glazed "Rifle Powder"? Is today's powder dirtier?

I've been doing research on the history of gun powder during the broader Fur Trade Era. That has spawned a couple of questions.

FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era?
F, FF, and FFF used in firearms in the broader Fur Trade Era is well documented and have what appears to be an interesting timeline of what was purchased when. But so far I've been unable to find any mention of FFFF use in the 1600's, 1700's, or 1800's. Has anyone uncovered mention of FFFF other than it was available (along with FFFFF, FFFFFF, and FFFFFFF)?

Un-glazed Rifle powder?
In the 1600's it seems F and FF were the grades generally purchased with F being the favored. In the 1700's F started to fall away and FFF was added to the mix. For the smoothbores (predominately large caliber) it seems the nod went to FF. As rifles became popular FFF grew in favor until in the late 1700's and early 1800's it was purchased (by the fur companies) in nearly equal amounts as FF.

Interesting was that "Rifle Powder" seems to be first offered as un-glazed in both FF and FFF even though glazed FF and FFF was what was being offered, preferred, and purchased at the time. Why all of a sudden unglazed specifically for "Rifle Powder"? Was it cleaner, leaving less residue in the rifling? Eventually glazed "Rifle Powder" became the preferred powder according to sales records.

And lastly-

Is today's powder dirtier?
I ask this because it sure seems like the DuPont powder I used in the '70's was a lot cleaner then the Goex I use now. I just don't recall having to brush the pan or pick the vent back then like I do now. Of course my memory might not be serving me well. Interested to hear what you other gray-hairs who shot through that era and today have to say.

#1 Never seen anything about 4Fg being used in the 1800's or earlier.

#2 Unglazed rifle powder - I've used it a lot for reenactments. The glaze comes from the addition of graphite and that's what the small "g" stands for in Fg, FFg, FFFg, FFFFg. It's more resistant to moisture than the unglazed is. When I was a reenactor in Vermont we had a place nearby that sold all kinds of Black Powder because the shale quarries in the area used it to break off big chunks of shale. So my reenactment group used to get cannon powder from them in 25-lb. bags for us to split up and use. It was the same granulation size as 3F but was not glazed and they called it some other grade (a cannon grade). As long as it wasn't raining out, the unglazed seemed to work just fine.

#3 My first black powder firearm was a Pedersoli Kentucky Pistol that I bought in 1969 along with some Black Powder and some #11 caps. I believe it was DuPont BP. When I got my first longrifle in 2002 or 2003, I couldn't get it to light off with Pyrodex. I still had an old jar of black powder from 1969 and tried that and it lit off on the first try. I found a source for BP just 6 miles from my house and would buy GOEX there. I don't recall any difference in fouling between the 1969 Dupont and the 2002 or 2003 GOEX. I bleieve that both of those were made in the same factory, so that's not too surprising.

 

[hawkeye2]

"For blackpowder that doesn’t have a graphite coating, you need to have an explosives license. Graphite treated powder requires no license, so I would surmise that graphite coated powder would be measurably less energetic than none graphite treated blackpowder."

Rock Home Isle could you please explain that statement further. If you are referring to the seller they are required to have an explosives license to sell either. An individual (buyer) does not need a license to possess any legally purchased powder of either type.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

As I understand it…if the powder is graphite coated, no license is required to possess the powder. If the powder is not graphite coated, then you must have an explosives license to possess.

 

[hawkeye2]

As I understand it…if the powder is graphite coated, no license is required to possess the powder. If the powder is not graphite coated, then you must have an explosives license to possess.

I believe you are misinformed. I bought 5 pounds of 5FA powder last fall to carry me over in case. I have had blasting powder and fireworks powder in the past and I believe some of those are not coated. Here is a description of FA powders from Maine Powder House who sells Suchetzen FA powders for $17/lb..

FA is typically known as a fireworks grade black powder. It is an uncoated (my emphasis) black powder with grain sizes (which are not the same as FG) are accordingly:

• 2FA: 4.75-1.7 mm
• 4FA: 1.7-.85 mm
• 5FA: .88-.3 mm

FA powder IS NOT THE SAME as FG powder.

 

[HighUintas]

I believe you are misinformed. I bought 5 pounds of 5FA powder last fall to carry me over in case. I have had blasting powder and fireworks powder in the past and I believe some of those are not coated. Here is a description of FA powders from Maine Powder House who sells Suchetzen FA powders for $17/lb..

FA is typically known as a fireworks grade black powder. It is an uncoated (my emphasis) black powder with grain sizes (which are not the same as FG) are accordingly:

• 2FA: 4.75-1.7 mm
• 4FA: 1.7-.85 mm
• 5FA: .88-.3 mm

FA powder IS NOT THE SAME as FG powder.

How did that 5fa shoot? I was curious about those. I would expect them to not be made to the same quality standards as far as uniformity goes.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I believe you are misinformed. I bought 5 pounds of 5FA powder last fall to carry me over in case. I have had blasting powder and fireworks powder in the past and I believe some of those are not coated. Here is a description of FA powders from Maine Powder House who sells Suchetzen FA powders for $17/lb..

FA is typically known as a fireworks grade black powder. It is an uncoated (my emphasis) black powder with grain sizes (which are not the same as FG) are accordingly:

• 2FA: 4.75-1.7 mm
• 4FA: 1.7-.85 mm
• 5FA: .88-.3 mm

FA powder IS NOT THE SAME as FG powder.

I hope you are correct.

 

[hawkeye2]

How did that 5fa shoot? I was curious about those. I would expect them to not be made to the same quality standards as far as uniformity goes.

I haven't had any need to try it as I still have a few pounds of GOEX 3f but the distributor said it was a little dirtier than 3f. I did check the specs and found the particle size range for 5FA was very slightly wider than 3F. Again, it is uncoated.

 

[senseisugarbear]

Hawkeye 2,, You are spot on on your layout of the diffrences in black powder. My family owned a Fireworks mfg.co. from 1950-1989..I made my living for 22 yrs making and putting on dislays.As well as selling to Disney, and many other display companys all over the U.S.the only thing I will add Is that our preferred lift was 2FAg. we ordered it 5000# at a time.If we couldn't get it we'd use 2FA intechangably. The IMPORTANT thing is that people like you make the info. available ,so someone less knowledgable doesn't get hurt. As far as homemade powder, we made that in 2500# batches that we called Rough Powder. I could in an extreme situation use it..But only to pick up an M4.

 

[hawkeye2]

Is 2FAg graphited? This is the first time I have seen that designation.

 

[senseisugarbear]

Yes, but in the Industry it was known as Glazed. We preferred glazed because it was cleaner to work with and handled humidity better. 2f= granulation A= Class A explosive ,g =Glazed. We accidently got a shipment of 2FBg , one time supplier said he'd give it to us if we could use it up. We got up to using 4 times our normal load and it still wouldn't lift our shells.We got an expidited shipment of 2FAg.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

"For blackpowder that doesn’t have a graphite coating, you need to have an explosives license. Graphite treated powder requires no license, so I would surmise that graphite coated powder would be measurably less energetic than none graphite treated blackpowder."

Rock Home Isle could you please explain that statement further. If you are referring to the seller they are required to have an explosives license to sell either. An individual (buyer) does not need a license to possess any legally purchased powder of either type.

Hello Hawkeye2. I feel I need to interject here. The reason they use graphite is to make it more water resistant. That doesn't stop it from absorbing moisture and turning to mush in the pan in high humidity or rain, but it takes longer to turn to mush.

Although Vermont is not known as a high humidity area, during the summer it can get quite humid. Not as humid as Virginia gets (was transferred to our facilities in Roanoke, VA in 2005, after Vermont), but to someone from the West Coast like me, it was humid! During reenactments of course, we are firing blank charges, so we just charge the pan and pour the rest of powder down the barrel. Not allowed to use a ramrod at reenactments because back during the bi-centennial (1976) a number of folks that year forgot to put the ramrod back in the pipes and launched it towards the opposing line.

Anyhow we never seemed to have any trouble with the humidity until we started using the cheaper un-coated BP. Typically when firing in a line, you load immediately after firing. A few times in that humidity we loaded and then maneuvered as a line and then broke into open order and moved through the woods. Inside of about 10-minutes, the powder in the pan turned to mush and you had to brush it out and then use patching material to wipe it out and dry off the pan, or at least half of our group would get a misfire - no flash in the pan. We used paper cartridges to carry the powder in our cartridge boxes and humidity never seemed to have an effect on the powder in the cartridge or in the barrel. But it would turn the powder in the pan into goo.

As far as it being illegal to buy, where did you get that info? Reason I ask is that the reenactment group I belonged to in Vermont for about 5-years bought it all the time. Had to produce your driver's license and sign the log for it just like buying it in the can (early 2000's - no plastic containers yet). Was absolutely no difference. There are a lot of shale quarries in VT and the quarries use BP instead of modern explosives to break the shale apart because it exploded with a lower frequency that would break off larger chunks of shale than the higher frequency explosions of modern explosives. We had a number of quarries in my area and had a BP dealer about 6-miles from home. He carried every type and grade of BP because his primary customers were the quarries. So either I or one of the other guys would go pick it up when we needed it.

We'd buy it and distribute it between our members at no charge (used annual dues to buy it plus did a few fund raising appearances as a group throughout the year). We'd typically buy it in 25-lb. bags graded as cannon powder and one of the guys would keep it in a buried vault in his backyard until it was distributed. It did not have the graphite coating and was the equivalent of 3F powder although cannon grades run a little differently. I have used some of that for live firing and there was no detectable difference in performance between that powder without the graphite coating and the GOEX 3Fg.

 

[hawkeye2]

Hi dgracis, no need to interject for my sake, I'm quite aware of the reason for glazing on the powder and also that one can legally buy glazed or unglazed, blasting or fireworks powder. The first paragraph in the quote you replied was a quote of the previous post I was responding to.

I've always used glazed powder (GOEX) and have never had any problems with the powder in the barrel when shooting or firing blanks but I have seen the fouling in the pan turn to soup causing trouble. Our group always bought powder in bulk (3f) from Back Creek Gun Shop and gave it to the members as they needed. The owner of Back Creek is one of the original members and after 47 years still participates when we are requested to do an event.

 

[hawkeye2]

I found this piece of information on the Skylighter (fireworks) site yesterday and wonder if it might be where some of the misinformation concerning legal issues comes from. It clearly states that a license is needed to buy A (unglazed) powder which is not true.

" Fireworks manufacturers prefer the "A" series black powder to be used in fireworks. But you are required to have an ATF license to buy that type black powder legally. However you don't need an ATF license to purchase up to 50 lbs. of sporting grade (G) black powders, which are chemically identical."

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I found this piece of information on the Skylighter (fireworks) site yesterday and wonder if it might be where some of the misinformation concerning legal issues comes from. It clearly states that a license is needed to buy A (unglazed) powder which is not true.

" Fireworks manufacturers prefer the "A" series black powder to be used in fireworks. But you are required to have an ATF license to buy that type black powder legally. However you don't need an ATF license to purchase up to 50 lbs. of sporting grade (G) black powders, which are chemically identical."

That is what I was referencing, but I could not find it. Thank you