FFG or FFFG
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ohio ramrod
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Each of us have a preference. Generally speaking when shooting FFF most use 10 to 15% less (by volume )than using FF. Basicly it is a "try and see" situation as to which preforms best in your gun. :idunno:
Difference in what? Pressure? Weight? Velocity?
For the same weight - not much difference. For the same volume - there will be about 6% more FFFg by weight than FFg. The smaller granulations burn a little faster, so the pressure spike/explosion is faster as well.
My .54 shoots FFFg better than FFg. But my .50 prefers FFg over FFFg. Barrel resonance or some mystical something-or-other. When you stumble onto or carefully work into a load that works better you just accept the results happily. ;-)
For the same weight - not much difference. For the same volume - there will be about 6% more FFFg by weight than FFg. The smaller granulations burn a little faster, so the pressure spike/explosion is faster as well.
My .54 shoots FFFg better than FFg. But my .50 prefers FFg over FFFg. Barrel resonance or some mystical something-or-other. When you stumble onto or carefully work into a load that works better you just accept the results happily. ;-)
I use 3F, allows me to load and prime with one powder. Shot both, honestly couldn't see a difference (besides granular size) that would lead me to choose one over the other.
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Please understand I do not mean to be critical of you personally, but there is a slightly more accurate way to explain it.
The finer 3Fg powder has more surface area, so it burns faster and thus has a faster and normally higher pressure spike, as you mentioned. I only mention this because some people think the powder "detonates" or "explodes" in the barrel and that is not what goes on. The powder does not actually explode in the barrel, it just burns extremely fast. The powder does burn all it is going to in the first few inches of the bore back at the breech, though, and this is why I think some people think it explodes.
Gus
The finer 3Fg powder has more surface area, so it burns faster and thus has a faster and normally higher pressure spike, as you mentioned. I only mention this because some people think the powder "detonates" or "explodes" in the barrel and that is not what goes on. The powder does not actually explode in the barrel, it just burns extremely fast. The powder does burn all it is going to in the first few inches of the bore back at the breech, though, and this is why I think some people think it explodes.
Gus
I guess. But can you quantify the speed at which combustion becomes an explosion?
Burning is a process in an open environment with "unlimited" air available.
Burning is a process in an open environment with "unlimited" air available.
for less than $25, you can get Lymans blackpowder handbook, and it will give you all the test loads and information that they did. very good books, with alot of information about several aspects of muzzleloaders. the newest edition covers more new things, while the first edition(about $15) does not.
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Articifer, I believe you are correct if I remember correctly BP does not explode or detonate... that would require the rate of burning to exceed supersonic levels and create a shockwave. ....technically it deflagrates.
It burns from one grain to the next and accelerates as it does. This happens very fast but slowly in comparison to other propellants.
BP is labeled as an explosive due to the low temperature needed to initiate the reaction.
And if IIRC the reaction does not need additional oxygen...the chemicals in BP supply all the oxygen necessary.
It burns from one grain to the next and accelerates as it does. This happens very fast but slowly in comparison to other propellants.
BP is labeled as an explosive due to the low temperature needed to initiate the reaction.
And if IIRC the reaction does not need additional oxygen...the chemicals in BP supply all the oxygen necessary.
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Yes! I believe it is the speed of sound.
But don't confuse the difference between an explosive and the explosion caused by the pressure it creates.
400 m/s (meters per second) is the shockwave qualifier for low explosives. Blackpowder qualifies. The speed of sound ("sonic") is 342 m/s at sea level.
A blackpowder projectile is moving at 1,200 to 2,000 fps at the muzzle (365 to 610 m/s).
You mean if something burns fast enough to cause an explosion it may not be an explosive?
Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck . . .
US DOT qualifies it as a Hazardous Class 1.1D Explosive. Who are we to argue?
I guess we can say TNT just burns very, very fast (19,000 m/s).
A blackpowder projectile is moving at 1,200 to 2,000 fps at the muzzle (365 to 610 m/s).
You mean if something burns fast enough to cause an explosion it may not be an explosive?
Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck . . .
US DOT qualifies it as a Hazardous Class 1.1D Explosive. Who are we to argue?
I guess we can say TNT just burns very, very fast (19,000 m/s).
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Not an expert....I'll admit it is very confusing and convoluted.... :surrender:
Not sure what the specific question was...
Not sure what the specific question was...
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Try them both an let you gun tell you what it wants to shoot.
Black powder deflagrates it does not detonate. TNT detonates. big difference in the speed.
That is remembering from my fire sciences classes for being a fire investigator and also was qualified as an explosive device investigator.
Black Powder is a low explosive no matter the muzzle velocity of a projectile.
That is remembering from my fire sciences classes for being a fire investigator and also was qualified as an explosive device investigator.
Black Powder is a low explosive no matter the muzzle velocity of a projectile.
By now, you've probably got the main answer to your question but I only saw one post that touches on a difference that is important to the shooter.
As you probably know, each muzzleloading rifle will have distinct likes and dislikes.
This is not only true with the diameter of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the amount of powder that is loaded. It is also true with the size of the powder granulation's.
Some guns really like 3Fg powder while other almost identical guns would rather shoot 2Fg powder.
If your lucky enough to be able to buy some of each, be sure to do so.
Then, by testing powder loads of each, you can find out if your gun likes 2Fg or 3Fg best.
As you probably know, each muzzleloading rifle will have distinct likes and dislikes.
This is not only true with the diameter of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the amount of powder that is loaded. It is also true with the size of the powder granulation's.
Some guns really like 3Fg powder while other almost identical guns would rather shoot 2Fg powder.
If your lucky enough to be able to buy some of each, be sure to do so.
Then, by testing powder loads of each, you can find out if your gun likes 2Fg or 3Fg best.
The difference is, and we'll be generous here, that the age-old adage is that one uses FFg for everything .50 and above. Some stretch that to above .50. Manufacturers are saying .45 and above.
Others seem never to have heard this or dismiss it for other reasons and defend their own actions by stating they are alive to do what they do.
That said, I have a custom .50 rifle in the works and the true gunsmith, who measured me for it, has it sighted in hitting only bulls-eyes at 35 yards with...
...60 grains of FFFg behind a .490 ball and .010 greased patch.
Others seem never to have heard this or dismiss it for other reasons and defend their own actions by stating they are alive to do what they do.
That said, I have a custom .50 rifle in the works and the true gunsmith, who measured me for it, has it sighted in hitting only bulls-eyes at 35 yards with...
...60 grains of FFFg behind a .490 ball and .010 greased patch.
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colorado clyde said:
This and your post immediately above it are correct.
In addition, there is no requirement for deflagration or burning to be completely in the "open air."
The following generally explains how low order explosives become "explosive" by confinement of the deflagration, where there is not enough room for the deflagration and expanding gasses to remain contained in a vessel or other container. This doesn't normally happen in a gun barrel (with appropriate charges for the types of powder used) as the gas continues to expand as it drives the projectile down the bore and out the bore. A Black Powder pipe bomb explodes because the container does not allow enough room for the expanding gasses to expand without rupturing the pipe, for example. http://www.interfire.org/res_file/def_det.asp
Gus
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Thanks Gus, That's the point I was trying to make. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
So true. I have guns that like 3F and some that like 2F. I do all of my shotgunning with 2F as I believe the slower burn equates to more even patterns, but my rifles are all over the board. I can't really predict what they will like. I just try them with both granulations and see which one they like the most.
Jeff
Jeff
