Field/Farm Use of Cap & Ball Revolver

[Bad Karma]

These were the first groups after the “ordeal“. offhand at 25 yards.

forgot to cover the 6th shot…

 

[Stantheman86]

Speak of the devil… I fired these both on Tuesday the 13th. Traveled to Florida and North Carolina returning yesterday. Crusty, right? Fired View attachment 164932View attachment 164933View attachment 164934View attachment 164935

Those will clean right up, not even a hint of rust yet

The real challenge will be the Spiller & Burr kit that I left rough and unfinished, fired 6 times on July 4th 2010 and haven't cleaned yet, it's frozen but not rusty. I feel like I could soak it in solvent and save it , and maybe actually finish it

 

[M. De Land]

Well M. De Land, I'm glad you think my spring job looks reliable and oddly enough it isn't nearly as complicated as you might think. You said yourself in your post that wires were more reliable than the flats that come in these assembled kit guns. That right there is the "real problem" that my springs solve. I have yet to set up any competition revolvers with flat springs. Customers don't trust them, they get beat with Rugers powered with coils. So, they leave here with coils to win against Rugers . . . and they do! I have absolutely no interest in going back to flats in a single action. I still tune the flats ( that what I was taught) if that's what the customer wants but it's pretty rare these days. Everyone wants something that won't break every time they go out with it.
It took some time to come up with my setup - what diameter, how many coils, left wind or right wind, how to anchor the fixed end, what "parts mods" to make . . . The Colt action was fairly straightforward while the Ruger got a whole new design with an " in the frame" trigger spring, new bolt spring and upgraded hand spring / plunger. Now some of the Ruger guys have an edge on the "factory" guys!!! The hardest of all was springing the Remington but I figured it out as well so all 3 of these platforms run with coil actions. All 3 have won championships so I'm content, my customers are happy, my non competition customers enjoy trouble free shooting on range day.
The only "fast" spring needed in a S.A. revolver is the main spring. It needs to move a heavy payload a good distance. The flat main is perfect for the job. That's why you'll find one in a Freedom Arms S.A. The coil main of the Ruger is it's biggest drawback for cap gun purposes. I do have my own "tweak " to it though . . .

As far as the wedge thing again . . . arbor contact under TENSION (which all mine and my customers have and yours apparently don't since you use it as an adjuster) is the key for longevity . . . Not strength!
The point is, I understand totally what you're pointing out perfectly
What you don't understand is why if my barrel goes down range, it'll go with the arbor PULLED from the frame, not torn at wedge slot. Which is why NONE of well over 500 open tops haven't had either of these things happen. Many of my customers are military that enjoy Walkers and trip 7! They like the BOOOOM not one failure.
It's a mystery . . .

Mike

PS If my arbor slot was stretching, why doesn't my wedge get loose? or my endshake change

If the endshake changes ( longer arbor= increased endshake), that will be the signal

If the wedge takes a beating, it will deform as well as barrel slot material.

None of this has happened since correction.

Fit, Strength and longevity are all joined at the hip Mike ! You push the pressure up to magnum level long enough and I predict you'll get your arbor stretch(and possible separation) at the slot sooner or later. The design is wholly inadequate for it !
A flat spring that is as reliable as a wire spring (and they can be if made of proper material) will always have a faster response time, physics being what they are, no way around that fact .
Rugers win because of superior design, steel quality and CNC machining in factory configuration. They're Black Hawks altered to shoot BP and round balls. The Ruger's start out several levels above reproduction guns of foreign make that need a lot of work to bring them up to the same quality level.
My tuned 58 Pietta will out shoot my ROA that is well tuned for competition .

 

[M. De Land]

They can flash rust over night when shot and not cleaned in rainy weather. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion which is one of the reasons it's often hard to buy a used BP gun that does not have some level of corrosion in or on it, especially rifles.
My ROA I picked up used that looked new on the outside had some fouling pitting in the action parts and congealed oil that had not been taken apart, cleaned properly and re-lubed in some time. The barrel and cylinder were still pristine.

 

[Daveboone]

Someone wrote a book about this back in the 90s, about alternate history like this.......

I also wonder if in 200 years people will be looking at SAWs and M16s in museums like we look at Flintlock muskets , all like "people used those things to fight???"

Guns of the South, if I remember right? It was recommended to me, but it sounded too far out for my tastes.

 

[TrapperDude]

Guns of the South, if I remember right? It was recommended to me, but it sounded too far out for my tastes.

That's the book. It was by Harry Turtledove. I'm a fan of his books.

 

[Bad Karma]

They can flash rust over night when shot and not cleaned in rainy weather. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion which is one of the reasons it's often hard to by a used BP gun that does not have some level of corrosion in or on it, especially rifles.
My ROA I picked up used that looked new on the outside had some fouling pitting in the action parts and congealed oil that had not been taken apart, cleaned properly and re-lubed in some time. The barrel and cylinder were still pristine.

I’m not seeing it here. I’m also not suggesting that anyone handle their maintenance exactly as I do mine. I am say flat out that the OCD maintenance routine followed by so many and cited by thousands more as the reason they won’t consider using the guns and powder is unnecessary for the most part. I would invite you to find corrosion on anything in my safe. It’s just not there.

BTW, the last ROA I bought was similar to yours, spotless bore and chambers but rusty inside the action. It’s been polished and is now packed with Mobil 1.

 

[45D]

Fit, Strength and longevity are all joined at the hip Mike ! You push the pressure up to magnum level long enough and I predict you'll get your arbor stretch(and possible separation) at the slot sooner or later. The design is wholly inadequate for it !
A flat spring that is as reliable as a wire spring (and they can be if made of proper material) will always have a faster response time, physics being what they are, no way around that fact .
Rugers win because of superior design, steel quality and CNC machining in factory configuration. They're Black Hawks altered to shoot BP and round balls. The Ruger's start out several levels above reproduction guns of foreign make that need a lot of work to bring them up to the same quality level.
My tuned 58 Pietta will out shoot my ROA that is well tuned for competition .

M. De Land, flat springs are fast and I agreed with you. Even when I agree with you you seem to have a problem with me saying it!! I like debating ideas and such but your gonna have to agree with me when I agree with you or you're never gonna understand!!! Lol
So what you're saying is coils are slow except when Ruger makes um. You're saying if I do it, they're too slow and I should change to flats made out of the material you use . . . so they'll be fast. I got it.

The thing is, you can't let go of a trigger fast enough to outrun my coil trigger spring so it doesn't need it to be fast.

Likewise, the bolt doesn't move very far and is fairly light. In my tuning process the bolt is made quite a bit lighter so my coil spring doesn't have to work as hard as it would. Since the bolt can't (and won't) outrun the spring powering it and you won't outrun its ability to cycle (even if you fan it!), the spring doesn't need to be fast.

And lastly, the coil and plunger setup for the hand. Ruger uses a rather anemic compression spring which allows the cylinder to go past lockup (throw-by) if the hammer is short stroked or your thumb slips off the hammer during cycling. In fact, one can demonstrate "throw-by" at will with a Ruger ( Jim Martin taught me this and warned me to limit doing the "Ruger" modification to competition guns only.) The warning was to prevent customers developing the drag line (I call them "Beauty rings"! lol) and being mad about it. It's considered a design flaw by many ( me included). So this presented a new challenge to overcome and one that Jim would give a nod to. So I developed my own "coil and pushrod " for the hand spring conversion. The spring has much more tension, is larger in diameter but is shorter. The "pushrod" is longer to prevent any binding in a Colt action (one of the problems some folks run in to with a Ruger factory spring and plunger). My version gives much more positive contact between the hand and cyl ratchet. This setup pretty much takes care of the throw-by problem inherent in the Ruger and is an excellent upgrade for the Colt action. That being the case, replacing the faster flat spring on the hand with a frame mounted coil is a great improvement in reliability. It removes the most broken spring in the Colt action.

So, like I said, the coils are an excellent upgrade (and my most requested service) and the tuned flat main is perfect for its role.

The ROA / 3 screw Rugers respond nicely to an upgraded setup as well. The spring and plunger trigger return is removed and replaced with a direct acting coil and the hand spring and plunger is replaced with my version. The redesigned bolt spring allows easy install of a bolt block whereas the factory spring almost makes it impossible. Add the action stop and you have a Ruger to beat Rugers!!!

Mike

 

[SOLANCO]

I fully understand your perspective. I also look at BP weapons as a worst-case scenario alternative besides a fun skill to develop. I mentioned in an earlier post that certain in extremis circumstances could preclude the availability of modern firearms, and that's why I train with BP weapons, too.

I have done training with other more primitive weapons, too. No one should overlook anything that might be a viable option if the preferred option is unavailable.

I keep an Irish blackthorn stick in the corner with the 12 gauge.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A cap and ball revolver beats the heck out of throwing rocks.

 

[Pete453]

Bad Karma, the front trigger guard screw is pretty loose or missing on the Uberti with the fluted cylinder

 

[TrapperDude]

I keep an Irish blackthorn stick in the corner with the 12 gauge.

Did you get it from Cold Steel?

 

[BatBoy]

For field or camping use, sure a C&B is fun. I wouldn’t hesitate to carry all six loaded. The pins on a Colt C&B are safe enough. Plus, I’d use a flap holster if I was worried about the hammer hooking in a branch or something similar.

For EDC, I’ll carry something more modern. I don’t let my sentimentality and romanticism for C&B revolvers influence me on this. Your mileage may vary, but that’s my decision. To each their own. If you EDC a C&B, that’s your choice and is better than carrying nothing.

If you shoot one chamber, might as well shoot the rest. Makes it easier to clean the revolver.

 

[Robby]

Yeah, if you shoot one chamber, well, kinda like potato chips, ya can't do just one.
Robby

 

[M. De Land]

I’m not seeing it here. I’m also not suggesting that anyone handle their maintenance exactly as I do mine. I am say flat out that the OCD maintenance routine followed by so many and cited by thousands more as the reason they won’t consider using the guns and powder is unnecessary for the most part. I would invite you to find corrosion on anything in my safe. It’s just not there.

BTW, the last ROA I bought was similar to yours, spotless bore and chambers but rusty inside the action. It’s been polished and is now packed with Mobil 1.

Yeah, I think Mike is on to something here with the synthetic grease pack and will give it a try. I wonder how it will do in cold weather though but actually now that I'm getting a little long in the tooth it probably is no real concern to me any more. I used to do quite a bit of cold weather shooting but not so much any more. Bare fingers hurt like crazy when it's colder than 20 F. and it's hard to run/load these guns with gloves on.
Had our Ruger's been set up that way I doubt they would have had any rusted or pitted interiors.
One more aspect I have to deal with here in Anchorage that I think is a corrosion factor is my proximity to salt water. Where close to it !

 

[M. De Land]

M. De Land, flat springs are fast and I agreed with you. Even when I agree with you you seem to have a problem with me saying it!! I like debating ideas and such but your gonna have to agree with me when I agree with you or you're never gonna understand!!! Lol
So what you're saying is coils are slow except when Ruger makes um. You're saying if I do it, they're too slow and I should change to flats made out of the material you use . . . so they'll be fast. I got it.

The thing is, you can't let go of a trigger fast enough to outrun my coil trigger spring so it doesn't need it to be fast.

Likewise, the bolt doesn't move very far and is fairly light. In my tuning process the bolt is made quite a bit lighter so my coil spring doesn't have to work as hard as it would. Since the bolt can't (and won't) outrun the spring powering it and you won't outrun its ability to cycle (even if you fan it!), the spring doesn't need to be fast.

And lastly, the coil and plunger setup for the hand. Ruger uses a rather anemic compression spring which allows the cylinder to go past lockup (throw-by) if the hammer is short stroked or your thumb slips off the hammer during cycling. In fact, one can demonstrate "throw-by" at will with a Ruger ( Jim Martin taught me this and warned me to limit doing the "Ruger" modification to competition guns only.) The warning was to prevent customers developing the drag line (I call them "Beauty rings"! lol) and being mad about it. It's considered a design flaw by many ( me included). So this presented a new challenge to overcome and one that Jim would give a nod to. So I developed my own "coil and pushrod " for the hand spring conversion. The spring has much more tension, is larger in diameter but is shorter. The "pushrod" is longer to prevent any binding in a Colt action (one of the problems some folks run in to with a Ruger factory spring and plunger). My version gives much more positive contact between the hand and cyl ratchet. This setup pretty much takes care of the throw-by problem inherent in the Ruger and is an excellent upgrade for the Colt action. That being the case, replacing the faster flat spring on the hand with a frame mounted coil is a great improvement in reliability. It removes the most broken spring in the Colt action.

So, like I said, the coils are an excellent upgrade (and my most requested service) and the tuned flat main is perfect for its role.

The ROA / 3 screw Rugers respond nicely to an upgraded setup as well. The spring and plunger trigger return is removed and replaced with a direct acting coil and the hand spring and plunger is replaced with my version. The redesigned bolt spring allows easy install of a bolt block whereas the factory spring almost makes it impossible. Add the action stop and you have a Ruger to beat Rugers!!!

Mike

Huh, I'm not really looking at it as disagreement but rather discussion on a subject we're both obviously passionate about. I set my guns up for target shooting primarily with trigger over travel studs , flat springs, sear lifts etc and your work seems to be more geared for speed shooting. Many of the tuning aspects are shared but some more specialize to the game requirements.
I'm picking up tons of good stuff to try from our exchange, not picking on you, just challenging some of your thinking.

 

[SOLANCO]

Did you get it from Cold Steel?

Three iof them. Ages ago. They are near impossible to break and the thorn stubs would put a hurting on someone.

 

[TrapperDude]

Three iof them. Ages ago. They are near impossible to break and the thorn stubs would put a hurting on someone.

I bought a couple of their Indian lahti sticks and a polymer African walking stick, along with a polymer baseball bat. They make cool stuff.

Edit: I forgot to mention that we were both lucky to have gotten actually wood versions of anything from Cold Steel. They couldn't reliable source wood forever.

 

[Stantheman86]

Guns of the South, if I remember right? It was recommended to me, but it sounded too far out for my tastes.

I think that was it, it was about going back in time and giving Confederates AK47s , etc

I was a kid and I remember my Dad talking about it

 

[TrapperDude]

I think that was it, it was about going back in time and giving Confederates AK47s , etc

I was a kid and I remember my Dad talking about it

I read it a couple of decades ago. I still have a copy.