Finally took out my Renegade

[ballandcap]

Well I bought a .50 cal. Renegade over a year ago. Some stuff came up and had to put on hold for a while. I bought this thing and didn't realize it had the QLA and my only interest was shooting PRB's. I PM'd a gentleman on here when it arrived about some advice. I was going to get a new non QLA longer barrell with a round ball twist and sell mine as new and unshot so I held off shooting until I could afford or get one.

Up till this weekend I had only shot my pistol CVA flinter, but was using Pyrodex. Pyro worked perfect in my T. Hawken cap and thought the "P" would be good for flinters, I am pretty new to all this. Well the delay of the shot(when it actually fired) was a second or two and wasn't even fun, especially with the flinching. Shot it a few times and thought it needed some serious work, but hopefully it's just the powder.

Got the gun set up on a table at 25 yards and took my 1st 3 shots with it. I was using Goex FFFG .495 balls and .010 pre-lubed patch. All shots went well but there is a delay. Not sure just how normal this is because my Cap lock T. Hawken goes of instantly. There is a definate delay, kind of equal to a hang fire on my cap lock, you know ffffffffffft....... BANG!. Maybe up to 1/2 second or a bit more, enough time to flinch before it fires. Here is a pic at 25 yards 3 shots

CAN'T GETS PICS TO WORK....

I was tickled with this 3 shot clover even though it was only 25yards. Stepped it out to 75 yards and things really opened up especially with all the flinching.
I seemed to have the same results of a hangfire no matter what I did. Tried FFFG and FFFFG in the pan, banked towards the vent, and away. Pan full, half way full, or even just a little. No matter what the lock time was all about the same. The gun has a new style Touch hole liner, frizzen and hammer.



Just how much delay is there supposed to be and what's acceptable?

How do I decrease lock time?

How do I keep from flinching? I do not flinch when I know there is no load during practicing.

While freehanding I really had a tendancy to drop the rifle at the shot. I have a lot to learn and long ways to go.



Just how fast should a flintlock be?

 

[grizs50]

Should be real fast, not like you describe. My flinter had to have the touch hole opened up and backbored, that moves the powder closer to the flash, she is quick enough that I can split business cards.

It has to be clean and clear to the powder charge. And as short as possible. I can't remember what I drilled the flash hole to but I can easily see the powder through the hole. It's a .32 and I shoot 15gr 3f swiss with 4f goex in the pan.

That gun is fast enough to not hear the flash and the main charge as a separate sound, it goes Clickboom faster then I can say it. LOL!!

 

[Walks with fire]

If your vent lines up correctly with the pan it should fire just fine. I also would use the QLA barrel you have; it probably shoots just fine with roundballs. I have two QLA barrels that shoot roundballs just fine. If the vent liner is the slotted screw driver design get the newer hex head vent liner from TC. They are .070 and coned inside and extremely fast ignition. Use real black powder. A flinter is actually faster than a cap lock.

To get pic to work set up an account with photobucket (it's free). Google it up. Download pics from your picture files to Photobucket. Once you have that set up click on the IMG code and right click your mouse and select copy. Open your post and right click and select paste. Pic's should be there.

 

[ebiggs1]

I agree with Walks With Fire, it should be very quick. I drilled my touch hole to 5/64th. I really don't think it helps but it probably doesn't hurt either. You must have real black powder. Make sure you didn't get GOEX Piinnacle instead by mistake. You must use real flints also, when you get good you can try the sawn "flints" but there again I don't know why you would want to. I did some tests over the weekend and I am going to post them later about how the prime affects ignition.

 

[ballandcap]

I am using real B.P. Goex FFF. I do have the new style hammer, frizzen, and the new style liner. The t.h. is centered and just above the pan. Looks perfect from the pics I have seen and what I've read.

I am using the sawn flint it came with (white), but also have an english flint to try. The pan went off fast and perfect, it was the delay in the ignition between the pan and powder in the barrell. A gentleman P.M'd me and gave me some tips I think will improve my success greatly.

I am using 3F in the gun, pouring in an upright barrell, and tapping butt on ground to help compact. He suggested 2F because it will not pack as tight. I was packing the ball tight against powder, like I have done in my cap lock. I did not use a vent pick in the powder after ball seated. I think logically these tips will solve the problem but will read much more and spend more range time this weekend.

The QLA was actually very nice in that I did not have to use my short starter and could just thumbstart easily enough. I thought that was great when I actually tried it for the 1st time.

Just got a custom flinter in the mail today and the gentleman said it is the fastest lock he has seen and is very well tuned. I will shoot that along side the Renegade with the new advice and see the difference.

 

[rafterob]

A flinter is actually faster than a cap lock.

This has been said before and disproved with published data. However, a flintlock should produce near instantaneous firing hardly noticeable from a caplock. You will get over the flinching with practice. if you don't get a lot of range opportunity then practice dry firing with a wooden "flint" and progress to some outside practice with a real flint and pan charge only. Try picking the vent hole after loading and before adding the prime. Some put the vent pick in before they load and then remove it right before they prime. My lock requires this for fast ignition.

 

[ebiggs1]

I again must agree with Walks With Fire on this one. I imagine tests were not done on all available flintlocks so it is impossible to say a flint is not as fast or faster than a cap lock.
I hate to mention my Firestorm, brings out the ire in some folks, and using the infallible human stopwatch, one cannot tell a difference between to two. I have had many different people fire both, my cap lock and the Firestorm side by side and not one person said they could tell the difference. In fact most said the Firestorm was quicker. I don’t offer this as proof of anything, just what my own situation has observed. If there is a difference, it has to be in the milliseconds.

 

[Walks with fire]

It is actully faster than a capper IF you have a coned vent that has powder kissing right out to the vent hole. The capper has a longer and less direct line to the fire. :hatsoff:

I never had a capper so I can't say; they are not legal in the PA primitive season. With the hotter 209 cap; who knows. I do know that with the vent liner sized to the granualation you use it's mightly quick. I use Swiss Null-B ignition powder that's hot and quick as well. I don't know of any tests about 4f vs. Null-B but my bet would be Null-B is a bit hotter in temp than 4f.

I am going to mention something that may be of interest to people who have the QLA muzzle. I started experimenting with a patch called a Plastic Patch from Hornady designed to hold a .490 ball and results in my rifles has been outstanding.Do not use any other size ball and they only come in 50 caliber. I believe it gives a more consistant gas seal than a cloth patch and works well for grooves depths that are .010 and under (Most TC barrels). This site doesn't take to well to plastic but it is a patch. I have been shooting balls from a GM 1/28 twist barrel with this patch and it puts them in there nice a tight @ 80 yards with 80 grains of 3f. They have been outstanding in my TC PA Hunter 31" and 21" QLA barrels. The 21" carbine has shown dramatic improvement because I can shoot the 3f @ 80 grains and get the speed and accuracy I want; It has turned this little barrel into a very handy,accurate and powerful .50 caliber stalking/treestand rifle. I have yet to test at 100 yards with a full charge of 100 grains 3f in the fast twist but don't expect much of a change. Fast twisters don't shoot round balls; yeah right. Caution: Myth busters at work.

 

[ebiggs1]

Ooooh, my goodness!

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu should not need 100 grains of powder behind a PRB to get an accurate group at 100 yds. You will actually do more damage to the group using this much powder in such a short barrel. Stick with 60 grains of powder, for target work. If your gun is sighted to shoot those .50 caliber balls a couple of inches high at 50 yds, they will strike a couple of inches low at 100 yds, but will still group well.

Just my $.02 worth of advice. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[smo]

You might want to try some ffffg in the pan. My flinters will shoot with fffg in the pan, but seem a bit faster with ffffg.Do Not use ffffg in the bore!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Walks with fire]

Paul;

I am fully aware that 100 grains of powder is not needed to shoot either targets or deer. 80 grains of 3f is plenty; my barrels are rated to handle 110 grains of 3f and it is not an overcharge. If you wish to shoot 60 grains of powder that's fine but to me that's a close range groundhog load or target load. I am also aware that for each 10 additional grains I load I am getting less additional velocity for each increment as I go up toward max. charge; but there is still a gain and it is significant gains.

Smo;

Nowhere does either of these posts mention anything about using either 4f or Null-B in the bore. ITS PAN POWDER. ITS PAN POWDER !!!!!!


ballandcap;

I re-read your post about getting hangfires. Sounds to me that the patent breech is holding fouling. You need to keep that cleaned out for consistant ignition with TC guns. Use a small brush and patch to get down in there. I do it everytime but it probably isn't needed for every shot. Consistant repeatable ignition time is very important to your best accuracy. We move and the gun moves every shot; if ignition is consistant it's far easier to be in the right place as the ball leaves the muzzle each shot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, I can only wonder if you have ever done any penetration testing with your load??? And how long do you last shooting those heavy loads? I am contesting your manliness. I am sure you are the biggest stud on the block. However, pounding your shoulder shot after shot has eventually gotten the best of the Best of us. :grin:

I found out a long time ago that lots of powder does not equate with the best accuracy. It may help the Testosterone flow, but the groups are rarely as small as when I reduce the powder charges to something less impressive in either the noise, muzzle flash, or recoil areas.

If you were shooting conicals, I would not have even responded. But you are shooting a PRB, with some of the Worst Ballistics coefficient known to mankind. Herb wrote a post a few days ago giving an old rule of thumb he had been told years ago, about how much energy is retained by round balls of different calibers. At 100 yds, you can equate the amount of energy retained as being roughly the same percentage as the caliber of the ball. ie., a .45 will retain roughly 45% of its ME out at 100 yds. A .62 will retain roughly 62% of its Muzzle Energy at 100 yds.

Sending a ball through the air FASTER simply makes it slow down FASTER, too. This is apparently a law of physics, I am told. All I know is that when you exceed the speed of sound with any RB load, the Ball loses velocity very fast- much faster-- in the first 20-25 yds., than when compared to firing that same caliber RB at a velocity under the speed of sound.

A RB's ability to penetrate is related to its WEIGHT(mass) more than its velocity.

My education on using heavy vs. lighter loads came when my .50 cal. rifle was brand new.It sports a 39 inch barrel, so I was not afraid to put more powder in it. But, penetration tests on Pine boards indicated that my 60 grain powder charge( 3Fg) pushed the ball through as many boards as my 100 grain powder charge did. I penetrated 6 1" boards, spaced 1" apart, and both balls banged into the 7th board. Both were flattened an equal amount. The smaller load was at the bottom of the box: the heavier load had a piece of the ball stuck in the splintered wood, and the "ball" fell down as soon as it was touched. The only service that more velocity gives a shooter is a slight decrease in trajectory at mid range. The difference at 100 yds. is so small that very few shooters can HOLD their iron ( open ) sights close enough to be able to use the advantage meaningfully, and then, only if using a steady rest.

Now, if you can refute those FACTS of life, I am all ears. :thumbsup: :hmm: :surrender:

 

[Walks with fire]

Paul;

First off I am 5'7" tall and weight 200 lbs. I was 98 lbs. when I graduated high school so if you are getting a visual here I would not consiser myself the most manly stud on the block on any account. I do shoot conicals from the GM fast twisters with 100 grains of powder under .50 caliber 385,410 and 460 grain and the GM manual I got with the barrels actually recommends it. Just to be clear I am not recommending it; the manual has. I also shoot plastic unmentionables of .40,.44 and .45 weighing up to 375 grains with most being in the 240-300 grain range. They carry more energy at 175 yards with far less wind drift than a fully charged 50 caliber round ball would at 50 yards. These loads are for hunting and yes I do sight in at a target to test loads but would not sit out there all day and pound away at it. Once the load is developed it is noted in the load book and details are noted as well. They don't have the recoil any worse than a 12 gauge shotgun or a 7 mag. rifle.

As to roundballs I use 80-90 grains of 3f in my 31" barrel and max. is 80 grains in the 21". I also use lower plinking charges on occasion if I just want to shoot offhand a little. I consider the roundball a very; very poor projectile and as I have stated on many occasion I consider them 80 yards max. for deer sized game and have done enough shooting and observing deer taken with them over the years to keep it in that range but I would very much prefer under 60 yards. They are poor projectiles and at one time they were a requirement in my state; not so any longer. I only mentioned roundball in the fast twist with 100 grains as a test to see if in fact it would group them at that range well. I wouldn't use it on deer anyway because I don't shoot roundballs at deer that far away; I have other projectiles that do a far better job at that range.

I don't care to sway anyone as to what they should do I am only stating what I do or have done. The only penetration testing I have done is ventilating whitetail deer and varmints and have not the least bit of interest in how many pine boards a ball goes thru. I do believe in velocity and shock effect. A roundball is the the worst on shock; BECAUSE IT's ROUND. I like roundballs and they are far more fun to shoot than conical bullets; but, in my opinion they have limits. Quit trying to tell me that a wide meplat bullet or a fast hollow point is less effect on deer than a ball because I ain't buying it and use what ever charge YOU are able to tolerate without whinning about it. The stud is signing off!

 

[ballandcap]

Just got back from shooting this evening. I only had a couple hours to shoot but noticed an improvement. As I'd mentioned in my last post I just got a .45 cal custom flinter. It has a large Siler Lock and G.M barrell. The first shot the pan went off and not the gun. I remembered what people had said on here so I picked the t.h. and spilled a few grains of FFF Goex out, put a good amount of FFF in the pan and banked it against the t.h. so it was kind of covering it. I tried to use the fuse principle (a line of powder falling out of the t.h. and leading into the pan so it all had contact). Not sure what's going to happen while hunting and the powder shifts back and forth and to the other side. Is this the correct or acceptable way?

Anyways, using this method it fired very quick and every time. Moved the sights and a last 3 shots grouped around 2 1/2" at 100 yards. I used 50 grains FFF at 50 yards and was a bit high and 60 grains at 100. I am still amazed at how accurate a flinter w/ iron sights can be.

Next was the Renegade, didn't get as much time due to it getting dark fast and burned up time on my custom. I tried some F-1/2 Swiss and FFF Goex. Both lock times were the same. Used the same "fuse type principal" I did on my custom. This definitely made a difference from my last outing with hang times. Now there was a difference compared to my custom w/ the Siler, the custom was much faster and definitely noticeable. I am now using a knapped English flint on my Renegade. I picked before the load, and after in the powder. I have definitely improved lock time but feel there is still a delay in the Renegade, well compare to the custom, which confuses me a little. I mean with the large t.h. liner and the way the new one is coned and the powder is close to the edge. The Hole is a little high compared to my custom and maybe that's the difference.

I am not flinching near as bad now. Guess it's more practice, I releaxed my neck and back like I'd read on another post. I had 2 shots that didn't go off. Flinched a little on one and hardly at all on the other. The first was that with the custom and the other is when I dryballed.... Man I HATE doing that :redface:

In between the Custom and Renegade I shot my little CVA Kentucky style flinter and went off just fine with real B.P. That was pretty fun too.

Walks with fire, what exactly does the patent breech look like? Does someone have a picture, or a cut-out or something? I know when I run a .50 Cal wire brush down it gets hung up on something and when I take the brush out it is trashed on the end bent backwards, like it went into a small hole. Is the patent breech maybe a cone shape with a hole in the center? Are you saying get maybe a .22 cal. wire brush and try to get in the center? Do you think this would help with the difference?

Thanks for all the help and advice guys! I have learned so much since I joined this site, I am hooked on real black powder now and probably will just shoot that for everything.

 

[Walks with fire]

Ballandcap;

I don't have pics but if you use the search function on the forum you will find some drawings of various types of patent breeches. Basically it's a hole smaller than the bore on the breech end of the barrel. TC makes a little brush to clean it out and it works well with a patch on that. A .30 caliber regular rifle brush with a patch wrapped around it will work as well but most of them are not 10/32 threads and won't fit your ramrod. If you keep that patent breech area cleaned out of fouling and use a pipe cleaner on the touch hole you should have very little problem with ignition of a flinter. If you don't expect hang fires and inconsistant ignition times.

Glad to see you shooting groups that size @ 100; it's very good.

 

[ebiggs1]

Paul,
I am a little confused here and I admit up front I have not completed any tests to resolve any facts. But let’s take the example to the extreme. If you threw your round ball at the 1” pine boards, how many would it penetrate? You said six when shot. The difference is velocity, so velocity has a great deal to do with penetration, right?
On velocity, the faster a round ball goes in the first place, the more velocity it has to lose but at any given range it will still be faster, right?
If a .50 cal round ball and a .45 cal. round ball are shot at the same velocity at the pines boards would penetration be less for the 45?
I am just curious because this is interesting to me.
EB

 

[smo]

Walks with fire, My reply was to Ballandcaps comment in his original post "I am pretty new to all this" and "thought "P" would be good in flinters" :nono: I just thought I would make sure "HE" understood not to use FFFFg in the bore. :v

 

[Walks with fire]

Smo;

I just got a little alarmed at the fact that you may be thinking I am shooting 100 grains of 4f and Null-b. It would be very dangerous and wanted to be clear about it so there was no mis-understanding. :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

My reference to velocity was a comparison of my two test loads of FFFg powder- 60 grains vs. 100 grains. I never said that velocity HAD NOTHING to do with penetration. Weight has more to do with penetration than velocity, within reason.

Nevertheless, I was Not expecting the two loads to deliver the same penetration, even at the short range I set my penetration box at. I suspect that their might be a small difference out at 100 yds between the two loads, But it can't be much: It would have shown up at close range with that heavy load pushing the ball much further through my test medium, than the ball fired with the lesser powder charge.

Conicals, fired through the same set of boards, the same day, acted much differently. Both velocity and Weight affected the degree of penetration, as well as bullet shape, and construction.