Finishing A Fowler Build

[dave_person]

The L&R QA is a worthless piece of junk but is 2" from center of pan to front of lock plate. The front lock screw goes behind the bend in the feather spring. The plate could be filed to shorten the front another 1/8" to be nearly even with the feather spring. The Kibler lock is 2-3/8" from center of pan to the front and doesn't shorten well.

Hi Ian,
The L&R Queen Anne lock is terrible but it can be turned into a good lock with some work.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217
dave

 

[PathfinderNC]

@IanH and @dave_person , I will look into the L&R Queen Anne when I get home tonight. ( ianH, I didn’t see your post earlier). If the forward lock screw is placed where you say and the front of the plate can be shortened that would be great. The issue though is where the pan sits. If the touch hole spot lines up with it on the QA then we have a foothold on this thing. Many thanks.

 

[IanH]

Thanks, Dave, I'll check that one out. I shouldn't say it's worthless because it did provide a lot of learning opportunities as I worked through most of its issues. It will never be great but after working it over to within an inch of its life it sparks okay.

 

[54ball]

Pathfinder,
There’s only one lock I would consider for this, the Chambers Early Ketland.
I would make that happen.
You are limited by the nose/front of the lock panel.

Moving the barrel back is not that big of deal. Honestly if that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes.
The lock and lock panel is the focal point of the gun. A slight gap in the barrel channel is not.
The lock panel has to be right.
Trying to squeeze in a bigger lock???
I don’t see it.
I would consider moving the barrel back if that’s what it takes.

 

[Rob M.]

Track offers oversized square plated locks that you can custom fit. TOTW says plate is 5.8" by 1.18", maybe something to look into?

You beat me to it . Ive changed locks or replaced locks many times in guns but never used the " over sized lock plate " lock from TOTW but was always curious about it .

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

Any chance that this Chambers lock might work? You could add a little metal here and there as needed.

All the quality and reliability of the Large Siler you've come to know and trust, now complete with Versatility! By leaving the lock plate square you have the choice and ability to create the lock design you really want. This lock is fitted with all the high quality parts that makes the Large Siler the top choice for shooters and builders alike. Knowing you'll have a precision tuned, trouble-free, dependable lock with the plate design you need for that special rifle makes this lock a true one of a kind.


Dimensions: 5 7/8" x 1 3/16"
Flint Size: 7/8" x ¾"

 

[PathfinderNC]

Any chance that this Chambers lock might work? You could add a little metal here and there as needed.


View attachment 258857


All the quality and reliability of the Large Siler you've come to know and trust, now complete with Versatility! By leaving the lock plate square you have the choice and ability to create the lock design you really want. This lock is fitted with all the high quality parts that makes the Large Siler the top choice for shooters and builders alike. Knowing you'll have a precision tuned, trouble-free, dependable lock with the plate design you need for that special rifle makes this lock a true one of a kind.


Dimensions: 5 7/8" x 1 3/16"
Flint Size: 7/8" x ¾"

Yes I have seen that- its an option but I think I just found a lock that will work. I appreciate your suggestion!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Good News: After checking the L&R Queen Ann lock, downloading the image and layering it on the stock lock mortise, we have a workable fit! Thanks to Dave and Ian. As Ian suggested, a little bit of filing away at the nose if needed (and it looks like I can widen the pan a bit as well), the pan and touch hole area will align. All that might be needed is a minor patch-job at the tail of the lock, which is a HUGE improvement over what I was facing with other options.
I read in the forum how disappointing the functioning quality of the L&R Lock is, but that's something that can be rectified as Dave mentioned. First step is getting it mounted and move forward from there.
I am so grateful for your support and guidance.

 

[IanH]

A couple of observations. The QA lock has a flask-shaped pan which can be lowered or moved forward around the flash hole location to function. However, I believe your overlay image above may have the lock positioned too high with relation to barrel center line. To solve this, I believe you can fill the entire existing mortice and align the pan as it is made with the barrel center line if you move the lock back approximately 1/8" and down about the same amount. You then have the option to either drill the flash hole at an angle to align with both the breech plug face and the center of the pan, notch the breech plug face with a file to create a flash channel, or drill the breech plug for a shallow patent breech and install a flash hole liner directly through the barrel, through the barrel/breech threads, and into the patent breech chamber.

Things to consider:

• Where the top/rear lock bolt hole exists now, will it align with the narrow but long bolster on the lock plate if you lower the lock some?
• Where, exactly, is the barrel center line vertically?
• Filling in wood behind the **** will be less obvious than at the back if you modify the breech plug and lower the lock...IF lowering the lock is preferable to meet barrel center line and still allow the upper lock bolt to hit the bolster in the correct location.
• Any filling you do around the lock inlet can be further concealed by some judicious "antiquing".
• The mainspring also has to clear the barrel, and this tends to force the lock low and limit how high it can be mounted. The existing rear lock bolt can be slotted to angle downward if necessary to lower the lock.
• The lock bolster is fairly short, so depth of the lock in the stock to meet the barrel is a consideration.
• Since the lock holes are already located and the shaping already done to the front of the cheeks on both sides, I would suggest that the order of importance to locating the lock is first the fore-aft location of the lock with respect to the cheek contours (can move FH back considerably if necessary as described), then the vertical alignment of both barrel center with pan and the rear lock bolt to bolster alignment, and lastly the existing inlet which can be easily filled. where necessary.

 

[IanH]

Here's how I located the lock on my 20-gauge shotgun. I did not contour cheeks because I wanted a wider forearm hand hold and the lock bolster was too thin for how wide I wanted the wrist to be.

Note the location of the rear/top lock bolt.

The front bolt hole location is negotiable on the lock as it will be mostly hidden behind the feather spring, so you can tilt the front of the lock slightly up or down or forward/back to make it align as necessary and if the hole isn't in a pleasing, centered location it won't be obvious.

Judicious "antiquing" can hide a lot....

 

[th1840]

Let’s look at this more.
Options....
Counter sink and polish a concave face on the breech plug. Notch the edge of plug face at the touch hole.
This should open up lock options.

There’s things you can do in the breech that can overcome touch hole placement issues.

I've seen that done.on a lot of older smooths

 

[Brokennock]

Do you even need the front lock bolt?

 

[Eric Krewson]

Looks like you have the problem solved, you can move the barrel back just a smidge even if it is swamped, it won't be noticeable.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

I was going to suggest a Chambers English fowler lock but if you have it figured out, great!
I would think that fitting a piece of wood and inletting it new would be the way to go, that way you have your choice of locks?

 

[PathfinderNC]

I was going to suggest a Chambers English fowler lock but if you have it figured out, great!
I would think that fitting a piece of wood and inletting it new would be the way to go, that way you have your choice of locks?

The issue is location of the touch hole. This lock mortise is such that it needs a short plate nose where the feather spring is, else the pan is too far to the front. The builder, MrCallaghan, also shaped out the mortise and molding so that it can’t take a lock longer than about 5.65” at most, without carving out and applying a patch to accommodate a longer plate. God knows what lock he inlet this stock for.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Just a quick follow- up: the L&R Queen Ann Lock is on the way. Hoping it will do the trick.

 

[PathfinderNC]

The L&R Queen Anne Lock arrived today and I am really happy with it. The unit seems very solid and quick, and it throws a shower of sparks even with an old worn-out gun flint.
I believe I can get it to fit into the long Fowler. I may shim the lock forward a 1/16” and the barrel back the same to make a pretty good line-up pan to touch hole. I can fill any lock mortise gaps with some small maple splints.
I’m feeling more confident about this project.

 

[IanH]

The sparks are still a cool, dull orange color (same as mine was, their frizzen steel sucks), but yours is about twice as fast as mine and has a very nicely shaped mainspring that "loads" correctly as it is flexed. You got a good one. It might even make HOT sparks if you put a decent shoe on the frizzen or case-hardened it, but for now it looks balanced and quite good....those sparks might not be very hot, but they stay lit quite a while.

This is what hot sparks look like. They don't last long because the heat burns them up quickly, but the powder isn't far away:



Queene Anne after a LOT of work and frizzen re-hardening:

 

[PathfinderNC]

The sparks are still a cool, dull orange color (same as mine was, their frizzen steel sucks), but yours is about twice as fast as mine and has a very nicely shaped mainspring that "loads" correctly as it is flexed. You got a good one. It might even make HOT sparks if you put a decent shoe on the frizzen or case-hardened it, but for now it looks balanced and quite good....those sparks might not be very hot, but they stay lit quite a while.

This is what hot sparks look like. They don't last long because the heat burns them up quickly, but the powder isn't far away:



Queene Anne after a LOT of work and frizzen re-hardening:

Yeah- my son who was videoing the sparking said “ ouch!” when a few sparks landed on him. After what I have read about the QA lock I am a good bit relieved.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I had some pleasant success today inletting the Queen Anne Lock into the Callaghan Fowler. The fit was better than I expected, with some patching needed only at the back of the lock plate (I moved the lock forward about 1/4" and extended the front nose mortise.)
I am also thinking that I may not even need to move the barrel back an 1/8" because the lock pan is large enough that I can grind out and widen the "bottle neck", so the touch hole is within the pan dish.
Next to work on making a patch with some Curly Maple I have around.