First black powder rifle, headed to the range.

[Britsmoothy]

Big Guzzi fan here too, in fact any Italian Vtwin gets my juices flowing .

Tell me, does the stock inletting at the breach end match the round barrel perfectly? In other words is the breach supported by the inletting or is it just sitting on the tang portion?

 

[dave951]

Thanks for the information on shooting high.
As for the .575 for the rounds, it really was what was available when I ordered the rifle. I also have .577 but waiting on a sizer. Some of the .575 are from a Parker Hale style mold, Some are from a Lyman mold. Basically I have 25 rounds from two style molds in .577 and .575. Total of 100 rounds. I don't figure on needing to shoot 25 rounds of each flavor to get an idea on what direction to go. As for the sizing when they arrived, I checked a few from each bag and all were pretty close to their respective catalogue size. Certainly sizeable. Is their something I should know?

Welcome to a potentially frustrating journey. Like I said earlier, there are basics to shooting minies. Bullet/bore windage, cap type, powder type (real black v "substitutes"), powder brand (Goex v Schutzen), powder granulation (2f v 3f), lube type, lead alloy, casting methodology.

25 rounds is a bare minimum to be able to even begin to go through variables that affect accuracy. Add to that, you have to segregate by weight. I trust only ONE person for precast and that Pat aka CivilWarBulletman, and he has a page with Lodgewood. It's easy to get voids in a minie when casting and they have to be cast hot with the lead at 800+F.

Type and brand of powder can affect results. I've had overall best results with Old Eynsford, but again, that's a variable from gun to gun. Now to cap type. I've seen very minor differences between RWS and Schutzen caps. With CCI caps, results were erratic and groups opened way up. Reason is, the CCI caps USED to be the gold standard till some reenactor had an eye injury and sued CCI so they changed the caps for the worse. Avoid CCI.

Next thing to look at is lube. Many use plain Crisco, but there is much, much better out there and it DOES affect accuracy. Again, when varying powder charge weight, powder type, powder brand and lube type, 25 is hardly enough for any conclusive results. I've done extensive experimentation with these variables and have seen two guns, supposedly identical, like completely different loads. Back to lube, after more than a few rounds downrange testing lubes, with all other variables held constant, I'm set with two. One is Len's Lube a commercial concoction and it's only for shooting the "trashcan" style minie. The other is a mix of beeswax, lard, and lanolin.

Here's a pic of what the beeswax/lard/lanolin does in my Parker Hale. Load is 42g 3f Old Eynsford, RCBS Hogdon, RWS caps-

And what the Len's does in my 1862 Colt contract. Load is 44g 3f Old Eynsford, Rapine Trashcan, RWS caps

 

[Mooney 78865]

Big Guzzi fan here too, in fact any Italian Vtwin gets my juices flowing .

Tell me, does the stock inletting at the breach end match the round barrel perfectly? In other words is the breach supported by the inletting or is it just sitting on the tang portion?

When I was fitting the barrel, I needed to relieve the rearmost end of the tang let in to allow the breech plug to slide back to fully seat against the stock. The depth was pretty good out of the box and only needed a bit of dressing up to remove some high points. The only real area that needed much attention was at the muzzle end. There I "glass bed" the barrel for a consistent fit and that wasn't much. I can't tell you if what I experienced is indicative of Traditions kits or not, It's my first kit.

 

[Mooney 78865]

Welcome to a potentially frustrating journey. Like I said earlier, there are basics to shooting minies. Bullet/bore windage, cap type, powder type (real black v "substitutes"), powder brand (Goex v Schutzen), powder granulation (2f v 3f), lube type, lead alloy, casting methodology.

25 rounds is a bare minimum to be able to even begin to go through variables that affect accuracy. Add to that, you have to segregate by weight. I trust only ONE person for precast and that Pat aka CivilWarBulletman, and he has a page with Lodgewood. It's easy to get voids in a minie when casting and they have to be cast hot with the lead at 800+F.

Type and brand of powder can affect results. I've had overall best results with Old Eynsford, but again, that's a variable from gun to gun. Now to cap type. I've seen very minor differences between RWS and Schutzen caps. With CCI caps, results were erratic and groups opened way up. Reason is, the CCI caps USED to be the gold standard till some reenactor had an eye injury and sued CCI so they changed the caps for the worse. Avoid CCI.

Next thing to look at is lube. Many use plain Crisco, but there is much, much better out there and it DOES affect accuracy. Again, when varying powder charge weight, powder type, powder brand and lube type, 25 is hardly enough for any conclusive results. I've done extensive experimentation with these variables and have seen two guns, supposedly identical, like completely different loads. Back to lube, after more than a few rounds downrange testing lubes, with all other variables held constant, I'm set with two. One is Len's Lube a commercial concoction and it's only for shooting the "trashcan" style minie. The other is a mix of beeswax, lard, and lanolin.

Here's a pic of what the beeswax/lard/lanolin does in my Parker Hale. Load is 42g 3f Old Eynsford, RCBS Hogdon, RWS caps-

View attachment 84705

And what the Len's does in my 1862 Colt contract. Load is 44g 3f Old Eynsford, Rapine Trashcan, RWS caps
View attachment 84707

Bare in mind this is my first attempt at assembling a muzzle loading rifle. What I though was going to be a "finish and go" project was a bit more involved.
No complaints though, I've enjoyed the build immensely. I have learned A LOT on this project! From inletting hardware, fitting a barrel, shaping and finishing rough brass, to staining and finishing woodwork. (although I am still trying to dull down the Tru Oil finish) Now I need to learn the process of determining what load, lube, rounds ETC.
I like to think I am meticulous, and God knows I'm competitive, so I'm sure I'll worry it to death until I get the results I expect. It's going to be a journey for sure. Hopefully, in a couple days I'll be able to say I have shot a muzzle loader.... and probably have a WHOLE LOT more questions!

 

[Okie Hog]

Congrats on the beautiful rifle.

 

[Mooney 78865]

Finally made it out to try the new rifle. I shot 45 rounds total starting out at 25 yards then backing up to 50 yards. I started with 60 grains of Pyrodex FFG and after 15 rounds, 5 of each type, 2 of Rapine .577, 494 grain and 477 grain, the other round was .575 555 grain Parker Hale.
At 25 yards I started with the aiming point at the bottom of the target sheet and was consistently hitting about 14-16" above and to the right of the aim point. But I did know where the rounds were going.
I moved back to 50 yards and repeated the process. Same aim point, and the rounds we still to the right and not much difference in height above. I then reduced the powder to 50 grains and repeated. Still to the right but now the rounds were coming down. The exception on the reduced powder were the .575 Parker Hale rounds. They were getting a bit erratic. Three would group pretty good and two would be out there. They were also the rounds that would shoot quite a bit lower with the 50 grain charge. As they were the heaviest I guess it makes sense.
It defiantly likes the .577 rounds.
The biggest difference was the powder load going from 60 grains to 50 grains. The groups started to be less erratic. Tomorrow I'm going to try 45 grains then 40 grains at 50 yards and see what results I get.
As it is now I am using White label lube from LCL, Pyrodex FFG @ 50 grains, RWS primers, and the Rapine rounds at 50 yards, and aiming about 8" low of center. I'm in no hurry at this point on adjusting anything other than the powder loads and me. I haven't shot a rifle in nearly 50 years and that was in boot camp.
When I get consistent groups I'll have questions on what the options are on the Enfield sights. For now, I'm happy to be on the paper!

 

[Jaegermeister]

I just want to let you know that I hold you personally responsible for my new desire to sell my Pedersoli Rocky Mountain rifle to finance an Enfield.

 

[Mooney 78865]

Too funny! I've really enjoyed the journey so far. Made that much better with the folks on this forum. Since today was really a day of discovery, I'm hoping tomorrow is productive. I have a lot to learn!
I wouldn't feel to bad about wanting a new rifle. I'm trying to come up with a way to explain to my wife I want a Kibler Colonial American kit!

 

[dave951]

Good start.

On the Parker Hale bullets, if you look at the base, I'd bet the walls are thicker than the Rapine so they're probably going to be better with a heavier charge.

A great lube that many have found to work well is nothing more than beeswax, lard and lanolin.

Ditch the Pyrodex as soon as you can if you love your rifle. Since the Goex plant oops, Schutzen is probably going to be your best bet. Swiss is the best, regular Schutzen is good. I'd go with 3f and cut the charges down to about mid 40s. That's an equivalent to about low 50s in 2f. You'll also probably find less fouling as well.

 

[ML48]

Have fun!!!!!

 

[Mooney 78865]

Good start.

On the Parker Hale bullets, if you look at the base, I'd bet the walls are thicker than the Rapine so they're probably going to be better with a heavier charge.

A great lube that many have found to work well is nothing more than beeswax, lard and lanolin.

Ditch the Pyrodex as soon as you can if you love your rifle. Since the Goex plant oops, Schutzen is probably going to be your best bet. Swiss is the best, regular Schutzen is good. I'd go with 3f and cut the charges down to about mid 40s. That's an equivalent to about low 50s in 2f. You'll also probably find less fouling as well.

You are prophetic. I have noticed the Parker Hale rounds do like the heaver load (with my minimal experience)
What I wanted to do today was to repeat yesterdays run through all three types of rounds with a charge of 40 grains, then 45 grains. What actually happened was I used the scale I had bought to weigh my rounds to weigh my powder, and "calibrated" my powder measure this morning at the range. What the powder measure was saying for 50 grains, actually turned out to be 38 grains on the scale, using the Pyrodex FFG. I spooned in enough powder to get to 45 grains by weight and adjusted the measure accordingly. Then I shot the same rounds I shot for yesterday's target I posted, .577/494 grain Rapine, 45 grains by weight Pyrodex FFG at 50 yards. After about the 7th shot I started to get real "anxious" I was going to ruin my grouping! I shot a total of 11 rounds and figured for a newbie it wasn't going to get too much better, so I packed it in.

 

[Mooney 78865]

Now for the $64 question. As you can see in both of my targets I am hitting to the right. I am also aiming about 8" below the center of the target. I would like to adjust my sight(s) but I do not believe there is much I can do short of filing. If anyone has experience with the sights on the Enfield and could shed some light I would really appreciate it. Or, should I wait, to get more familiar with the gun?

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Mooney 78865, please stop weighing Pyrodex on your scale. Pyrodex was developed to be volume equivalent to black powder. It is considerably less dense than the equivalent grain sized black powder. Your 45 grains on the scale will perform about like a 60 grain charge of black powder. That is probably what the grain setting on your volume measure was set to. So one more plea, don't use your weight scale to develop your load using Pyrodex. You will get reasonable performance with Pyrodex, but best performance will result when you use black powder that is much easier to ignite.

 

[Mooney 78865]

@Mooney 78865, please stop weighing Pyrodex on your scale. Pyrodex was developed to be volume equivalent to black powder. It is considerably less dense than the equivalent grain sized black powder. Your 45 grains on the scale will perform about like a 60 grain charge of black powder. That is probably what the grain setting on your volume measure was set to. So one more plea, don't use your weight scale to develop your load using Pyrodex. You will get reasonable performance with Pyrodex, but best performance will result when you use black powder that is much easier to ignite.

Good deal, I'll go back to the volume measurements on the powder measure and leave the scale to weigh bullets. Thanks for the input!

 

[ML48]

Good deal, I'll go back to the volume measurements on the powder measure and leave the scale to weigh bullets. Thanks for the input!

Remember, pyrodex is what you go to, when you just ain't got nothin' else.

 

[Stantheman86]

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole of getting a military style Rifle-Musket to shoot right.

I'm working on an ArmiSport CS Richmond right now with a "backlog" of a bunch of other various Rifle-Muskets after that.

I always start with .575 Minies and 60 gr of the Holy Black in 2f or 3f, it doesn't seem to matter much.

When you go with bigger Minies you may be giving up their intended ability to load and shoot 50+ rounds without cleaning but you may give up some "on paper" accuracy. I myself also like to make Paper Cartridges and shooting a whole 50 round cartridge box without having to wipe the bore is a ton of fun. If accuracy is within the period "specs" I'm happy.

Also, I try to rule out my own flinching or "pulling" before I alter sights. My CS Richmond hits to the right with almost everything but the groups moved to the center with .58 REAL bullets. Weird. I'm convinced it's me "pulling" right and with the REAL bullets maybe I just happened to get the fundamentals on , I'm not sure. I did add a Tang Sight but I used the factory sights as my guide which are off....uh oh. If my sights are off I may just have to live with it, but the odd change in Point of Impact with REAL bullets makes this more puzzling.

90% of the fun is taking the rifle to the range 4 or 5 times and shooting various charges and projectiles through it. 3 range trips in and I still haven't ironed out my ArmiSport.

Options are few for correcting a Rifle-Musket that shoots Right or Left without some unsightly filing on rear sight notches or front sights. Many of them are not on for windage. Try to rule out all all variables, even wrapping slings around your arm, taking the ramrod out, etc can effect Point of Impact. It might even benefit from a Glass Bed. Many Italian repros have barrels that pretty much sit loose in the barrel channel because these are mass produced to a price point.

 

[Mooney 78865]

Remember, pyrodex is what you go to, when you just ain't got nothin' else.

No doubt! I can not find anything at all locally. I drove 125 miles for this lot. I'm still looking, hoping someone local will come up with something better, and i don't have to pay "hazmat".

 

[Mooney 78865]

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole of getting a military style Rifle-Musket to shoot right.

I'm working on an ArmiSport CS Richmond right now with a "backlog" of a bunch of other various Rifle-Muskets after that.

I always start with .575 Minies and 60 gr of the Holy Black in 2f or 3f, it doesn't seem to matter much.

When you go with bigger Minies you may be giving up their intended ability to load and shoot 50+ rounds without cleaning but you may give up some "on paper" accuracy. I myself also like to make Paper Cartridges and shooting a whole 50 round cartridge box without having to wipe the bore is a ton of fun. If accuracy is within the period "specs" I'm happy.

Also, I try to rule out my own flinching or "pulling" before I alter sights. My CS Richmond hits to the right with almost everything but the groups moved to the center with .58 REAL bullets. Weird. I'm convinced it's me "pulling" right and with the REAL bullets maybe I just happened to get the fundamentals on , I'm not sure. I did add a Tang Sight but I used the factory sights as my guide which are off....uh oh. If my sights are off I may just have to live with it, but the odd change in Point of Impact with REAL bullets makes this more puzzling.

90% of the fun is taking the rifle to the range 4 or 5 times and shooting various charges and projectiles through it. 3 range trips in and I still haven't ironed out my ArmiSport.

Options are few for correcting a Rifle-Musket that shoots Right or Left without some unsightly filing on rear sight notches or front sights. Many of them are not on for windage. Try to rule out all all variables, even wrapping slings around your arm, taking the ramrod out, etc can effect Point of Impact. It might even benefit from a Glass Bed. Many Italian repros have barrels that pretty much sit loose in the barrel channel because these are mass produced to a price point.

When I built the kit I did "bed" the barrel. While that was the first time I had ever done it, it may pay for me to revisit it.
And I will resist attempting any sight modifications until I get a few more trips to the range.
What about the fact I have to aim 8" below the center of the target at 50 yards? Leave it alone for the time being as well? Is there a rule of thumb on where the aiming point should be at 50 yards?

 

[Stantheman86]

They all hit high, the 100 Yard slider is more of a 0-200 battle sight setting. The repros just carry this over from the originals, muskets used by NSSA Skirmishers almost always have a taller front sight blade added.

British Soldiers were trained to use a "half sight" picture , unlike Americans who are used to aligning the tip of the front sight with the top of the rear sight.

Also the shooting stance is different for the Enfield, standing more square to the target may move the group over because it's easier to achieve the cheek weld as the rifle is designed for. American rifles like the Springfield are designed for the American "boxer" style stance with the right foot farther back.

Lots of people say they don't like the stock drop on an Enfield because they aren't shooting them correctly.

A half sight will most likely put you more "on" at 50 yards. Maybe even a "Quarter Sight" where you can just barely see the front sight blade in the notch.

Muzzleloading is 99% experimenting until something works but then the next time you shoot , it may not work again. There's a million variables.

I was shooting to the right 2 days in a row with the same rifle , I took a shot at my steel swinger I had at 100 yards while standing and smacked it right dead center. On paper my groups went back to the right. No explanation for any of it.

Maybe I was flinching ? Or in a position on the shooting bench that threw my sight picture off? Powder was more compressed or I was deforming bullets by loading too vigorously? It's mind boggling.

My ArmiSport Richmond ended up apparently really liking .58 Maxi Balls that I fired just to use them up, and clover leafed 3 shots about a foot to the right with .570 round balls and .010 patches. It's like it shoots well with everything except the .575 Minies I'd hoped it would shoot well with , but that's how it worked out I guess. Looks like I have a .58 Round Ball rifle.

If I buy another Italian repro it will be a Cook & Brother rifle because the rear sight is dovetailed.

 

[dave951]

Good deal, I'll go back to the volume measurements on the powder measure and leave the scale to weigh bullets. Thanks for the input!

A word on weight v volume. I would use volume on Pyrodex, that is if I ever were cornered into using that garbage. There is a huge debate over weighing v volume in the black powder shooting community but here is one thing you should notice. In nearly every case, a competition shooter will weigh a charge and then set the powder dispensing device to that weight regardless of what's marked on the device. The reasoning is that mass is mass and individual powder grain size can vary (especially from lot to lot) making a volumetric measure suspect on consistency.

Shooting 8in high at 50yd is normal for issue sights. Most shoot 18in high at 100yd and the reason is soldiers were taught to aim center mass, not target shoot. Call it a battle zero that ensures hits out to 200+.

If at all possible, order some real black in 3f. The NMLRA has a powder purchase program and I'd look into joining one of their charter clubs and start getting real black powder. This stuff is addicting and you'll be going through more powder than you ever thought possible.