First Longrifle

[gth871r]

I've very much enjoyed reading the wealth of information on this board it has completely changed what I thought I wanted from a longrifle.

I'm thinking of having my first longrifle (and first muzzleloader) built. Based on the recommendations of this board I'm probably going to go with TVM. I was wondering about the correctness/plausibility of several of the features I'm thinking about. I'm leaning toward a left handed Early Virginia rifle. Are there any examples of left handed guns from the colonies?

Also, every original long rifle I've seen has had a patchbox of one form or another. Were there exceptions to this rule? I'm thinking about doing without a patchbox since it's a rather expensive add on that I don't see myself using much.

All the original examples I've seen have had a great deal of carving, engraving, and inlaying done. It seems to me (not that I'm an expert or anything) that someone using a rifle to carve out a meager living on the frontier wouldn't have payed for such non functional extras. I wonder if the surviving examples are from cherished collections of relatively wealthy individuals which were displayed a lot and used relatively little. Was there a much larger population of much plainer rifles which were used more, valued less, and thus have not survived into the present day? Alternatively, can anyone point me to images of a poor man's rifle from the early (pre-revolution) colonies?

Thanks

 

[redwing]

Where in history did you find an Early Virgina Style Rifle?? I think Chambers started this in the past 20 years?? I have never known anyone rich or poor who owned an orginal Early Virgina? :shake:

 

[Zonie]

James T. Butler, Jr and Dr. James B. Whiskers book "Long Rifles of Virginia " shows several original rifles without patchboxes.

Based on just eyeballing the birth dates of many of the gunsmiths listed in the book I would say that by the late 1700's Virginia rifles were being made although most of them were building in the early to mid 1800's.
These earlier guns were of course flintlocks.

Unlike many of Dr. Whiskers books which deal more with the lives of the gunsmiths, this book has many photos of original Virginia Rifles and some very nice pistols.

Dr. Whisker is a nit picker for details and IMO, if he says these guns were built in Virginia I have no doubt that they were.

 

[Dphar]

I've very much enjoyed reading the wealth of information on this board it has completely changed what I thought I wanted from a longrifle.

I'm thinking of having my first longrifle (and first muzzleloader) built. Based on the recommendations of this board I'm probably going to go with TVM. I was wondering about the correctness/plausibility of several of the features I'm thinking about. I'm leaning toward a left handed Early Virginia rifle. Are there any examples of left handed guns from the colonies?

Also, every original long rifle I've seen has had a patchbox of one form or another. Were there exceptions to this rule? I'm thinking about doing without a patchbox since it's a rather expensive add on that I don't see myself using much.

All the original examples I've seen have had a great deal of carving, engraving, and inlaying done. It seems to me (not that I'm an expert or anything) that someone using a rifle to carve out a meager living on the frontier wouldn't have payed for such non functional extras. I wonder if the surviving examples are from cherished collections of relatively wealthy individuals which were displayed a lot and used relatively little. Was there a much larger population of much plainer rifles which were used more, valued less, and thus have not survived into the present day? Alternatively, can anyone point me to images of a poor man's rifle from the early (pre-revolution) colonies?

Thanks

I would point out that in the 18th century carving was expected on gunstocks (and furniture) until late in the 18th and even well into the 19th in the US.
Its the way they were supposed to be. The British Indian trade rifles in the 1780s were carved. They came in three grades and the cheapest one was by far the least popular. The Brown Bess Musket had rudimentary carving.
Its how things were done.
Everyone likes to get on the plain gun band wagon but we need to remember that at this time people were judged by what they owned and what they wore. This was a major thing since there was no identification other than what you saw of the stranger you met. If traveling and arriving in a place where you were unknow being dressed like a runaway or low end of the social spectrum could get you "detained" to see if you were wanted for something. If you arrived dressed well with quality belongings you would not likely be interfered with.
The "Haymaker" rifle is what I see as a plain working gun of the early 1770s. The original owner was killed buy natives while surveying in on the frontier in VA. It a sliding wood patchbox Kentucky with relief and incised carving. Not extensive but its carved. I suspect that this is a typical working rifle of the time. You must remember that the barrel was the expensive part of a rifle. Carving was cheap by comparison.
Look to the Cowboy of the 1870s they had pretty fancy outfits they would spend several months pay on fancy stuff they worked no better than plain would have. How about the finned and chromed cars of 1950-1960? Look at the vehicles of today. Does anyone REALLY need fancy wheels on a 4wd pickup or even a car?
But they are everywhere.
How about very expensive rifles that show a LOT of wear such as the Antes swivel breech? Still original flint but the carving is nearly obliterated from handling in high wear areas like the wrist. This rifle likely cost 30-40 dollars when new when a decent rifle was perhaps $12.
Somebody sure used it. Elaborate carving, engraved patchbox and its a swivel breech.
The Landcaster county Kentucky of 1775 was not the austere 1820s-1840s "Tennessee rifle". By 1800 styles were changed in England and were changing here. People came to see carving on gunstocks (or furniture) as old fashioned so the relief carved rifle was replaced with rifles decorated with silver or brass inlays. Actually much more expensive than carving but in fashion at the time. Some makers hung on and there are carved rifles made in the 1840s. But it really was dead by this time. It had nothing to do with whether people would use them for hunting ect. It was a change in what people thought a rifle should look like.

Dan

PS the Haymaker rifle is a Virginia rifle.
For more on this see Gusler's Relief Carving a Kentucky Rifle Video. Features a number of VA rifles that are likely re-war period.

 

[54ball]

In it's stock form as pictured on the TVM web sight, their Early Virginia is really closer to a very early Southern Mountain circa 1790 to 1810 just add a later English lock and tallow hole. There are options you could order with it to make it more like the early rifle you want. These include, all brass trim, sliding wooden patch box or simple brass patch box, swamped bbl 42 to 44" in .50-.54, and an early English lock. The swamped barrel and early English lock are the most important.
As far as the left hand lock it would have been very, very rare. With that said a few left handed guns were made in those times. A left hand smooth bore was found in an indian grave in Louisanna.
As Dan pointed out even the simplist rifle had some carving. At minimum it should have fore stock moulding, lock plate moulding terminating into a teardrop or beaver tail and a simple design behind the cheek. If you want a simle poor mans gun you'll have to move up to a 1800-1810 Appalachian rifle.
Google I was Free Born Rifle or simply Free Born Rifle to see a possible Early Virginia. Google Bolgle Rifle to see a 1790s Tennessee Rifle.

 

[roundball]

I've never used a patchbox, never will...and when I decided to have TVM build some of their Early Virginias I had them custom built "for me" to shoot and hunt with, not how anyone else thought I should have them built.
IE: I wasn't trying to obtain some precise exact copy of any original, and its highly unlikely that anybody could actually make such a thing anyway, or if they thought they could, there would always be somebody who would take issue with whatever anybody else choses to do anyway...LOL.

So personally, I opted out on patchboxes and bought the best looking super premium ++ grades of wood that they had, without all the patchbox hardware taking up so much of the stock wood area...and to me the entire gunstocks are beautiful enough on their own merit...a joy to carry, shoot and hunt...but that’s just me....bottom line is that "YOU" have to decide what you're interested in.

Here are some of mine built by TVM w/o patchboxes:

.40cal

.45cal /.54 SB

.58cal

.62cal SB

 

[hanshi]

First off, welcome to the forum. If money is an issue - and isn't it to us all - I'd forget carving and patchbox and put that money into a swamped barrel and a Chambers Colonial Virginia lock. That will give you a very fine rifle.

 

[Mickc01]

First off, welcome to the forum. If money is an issue - and isn't it to us all - I'd forget carving and patchbox and put that money into a swamped barrel and a Chambers Colonial Virginia lock. That will give you a very fine rifle.

Ditto. Perfectly said :thumbsup:

 

[longrifle89]

I have almost exactly what you want. Left-handed Early Virginia from TVM, no carving, but with features that are more associated with being "early"--42" swamped barrel, brass trim, L&R Queen Anne flintlock, premium+ maple, and .54 caliber. My old Investarms Hawken had a patchbox that I never used, so I didn't get one. I considered the swamped barrel to be more important.

 

[Number19]

54ball, your comment referring to the Bolgle Rifle as a "Tennessee" is the second I've seen. What is the source of this evaluation? Every written source I'm acquainted with describes it as "a strong lower Valley of Virginia" architecture. Jos Bogle may have some of his apprenticeship in Pennsylvania, had a middle period in Virginia, before moving on to Tennessee. His later rifles have a more distinctive Tennessee influence. But the rifle known as "The Bolgle Rifle" is most commonly recognized as "Virginia" as far as I am aware.

Gth871r, yes there were exceptions to rifles having a patchbox, just as there are exceptions to carving. But I agree that the first thing is to define what historical period you define as "early". I'm at odds with many on this board in that I include the Revolutionary War period as an "early" period. TVM's rifles most closely, IMO, fit into this time period. If you can find a copy of The Rifles of Colonial America vol II by Schumway, this is an excellent reference source for the less-well-informed, which is a pretty good description of myself, compared to some on this forum. There is a modestly decorated Faber rifle probably dating from the FIW period. Look at rifles by Andrew Eaby, Alexander Walker, Adam Haymaker, but these rifles all had patch boxes and were modestly carved.

 

[54ball]

A owner of the Bogle rifle who aquired it from the McTeer family did research on the original owner Robert McTeer and the maker Jos Bogle.
McTeer came to the French Broad area of Tennessee around 1784. The earliest record for Bogle in the area is 1786. Both men were members of the same church. For the rifle to be Viginia made, the maker would have to have posessed it several years before the first owner McTeer. I find this unlikely. What is more likely is this rifle was made in frontier Tennessee by a gunsmith with training or influence from Virginia.
This rifle is truly special. Virginia influence, trimmed in iron, early use of the "Late" Ketland style lock, and it has little to no carving other than some incised lines along the stock.
The TVM trimmed in iron would be in some ways very close to this rifle. A circa 1790 Tennessee frontier rifle.

 

[Number19]

Yes I agree that the rifle may have actually been built in Tennessee, not too long following Bolgle's arrival in that state, although its manufacture cannot be established with certainty.I place more emphasis on the architecture of the rifle, in describing it as "Virginian" and You place slightly more emphasis on the location of the manufacture when describing it as "Tennessee with Virginian influence". But we're pretty much in agreement. I thought maybe there was a study of the rifle that I had not yet run across. Thanks.

 

[hoochiepapa]

It all boils down to this:
Do what you want!!