First muzzleloader advice

[coloradoclyde]

but none of the production rifles I handled, not even the Pedersoli's, seemed to come remotely close to that quality level. Am I alone in this sentiment?

Umm!....that's because they are "production" rifles....As the moniker implies....they are designed for mass production and not hand crafted....
All that said.....Don't judge a book by it's cover.....And don't get hung up on aesthetics...

 

[derek58]

but none of the production rifles I handled, not even the Pedersoli's, seemed to come remotely close to that quality level. Am I alone in this sentiment?

Umm!....that's because they are "production" rifles....As the moniker implies....they are designed for mass production and not hand crafted....
All that said.....Don't judge a book by it's cover.....And don't get hung up on aesthetics...

My Uberti lever gun is a production rifle and it's gorgeous, and in the same price point as the Pedersoli (though granted, they are two different types of firearms). At the end of the day, they are both reproduction rifles. I would expect the quality of the components and the fit and finish to be similar, but they are not. That was my point.

I'm 24 and work as a EMT/Medic. I don't have the $$$ to buy a bunch of different stuff and see what works best for me. I'm a buy once, cry once kind of guy, so I'm asking the hive here for advice so I can make the most well-informed decision possible. I appreciate your input.

 

[derek58]

When I first looked at muzzleloading rifles I also noticed the wider array of projectiles and accessories for the .50 cal over any other. And to be honest I wasn't too sure of a conical much less a ball and thought I'd likely go the more modern route, though many people showed me with their results how the modern way of looking at this doesn't really apply.

I had bought my Lyman Deerstalker in .50 cal. It's been a good rifle but if I were to do it over again I'd have chosen the .54 for certain. It's a little less effected by wind drift and has a heck of a lot more thump. Not much in Texas I'd really need the thump of a .54 but why not? And I just may get an opportunity to hunt for large game, which I figured I'd switch to a conical for in my .50, but a ball in .54 cal isn't a sissy and a conical is just much bigger of a hole really.

Thanks for putting in your two cents! You didn't say that you had, but I'm guessing you've shot a fair amount of .54 as well. If so, do you find the increase in effective range in the .50 to be noticeable?

 

[coloradoclyde]

I don't have the $$$ to buy a bunch of different stuff and see what works best for me. I'm a buy once, cry once kind of guy, so I'm asking the hive here for advice so I can make the most well-informed decision possible. I appreciate your input.

Its' a good thing to ask questions and to learn from other's mistakes and trials....

It's a bad thing to assume you won't still be wrong, make mistakes or be unhappy.........

Life is just not that simple.... :v

 

[cynthialee]

Your concern over product availability for the .54 is pretty much unfounded. Get a bullet mold or two for your gun and make your own. Took me all of a week to get the first ladle, molds, a small Dutch oven for a lead pot and an old Coleman stove. It is actually pretty easy to do. All you need to do is start casting after doing some reading, ruin your first 100 or so bullets you cast and soon enough they come out better than the factory made ones.

Also, you are going to be making internet purchases for some things eventually anyways. Track of the Wolf has everything you will ever need for the rifle.

The .54 shoots flatter than a .50

Larger bullets = more whompability

All that said...I mainly use my .50 instead of the .54 for the hunt. But that is mainly due to it being the gun I am most confident with at this time.

 

[rodwha]

I have only shot my own .50 cal rifle. But if you look at the max charge of say Pyrodex RS (2F equivalent) and run the balls through a calculator you find out the .54 shoots just as flat but resists wind a bit better.

A .490" ball weighs 177 grns and has a BC of 0.069 and a .530" ball weighs 224 grns and has a BC of 0.075. According to Hodgdon's site the .50 cal with 100 grns of RS travels at 1851 fps and the .54 cal with 120 grns of RS travels at 1812 fps (I use Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 with close to 80 grns and get close to that speed).

So at the muzzle the .50 begins with 1347 ft/lbs and has 453 at 100 yds, and 384 at 125 yds. The .54 began with 1633 ft/lbs and retained 593 at 100 yds and 505 at 125 yds.

The .50 cal (increments of 25 yds and zeroed at 100 yds with 10 mph 90* crosswind) looks like this:
+1.0" and 0.6" drift at 25, +2.0" and 2.4" drift at 50, +1.7" and 5.6" drift at 75, 0.0" and 10.1" drift at 100, and -3.6" and 15.8" drift at 125.

The .54 cal looks like this:
+1.0" and 0.6" drift at 25, +2.0" and 2.2" drift at 50, +1.7" and 5.2" drift at 75, 0.0" and 9.4" drift at 100, and -3.5" and 14.7" drift at 125 yds.

Another thing, assuming the barrel thickness is the same, the larger caliber will weigh a bit less which is great for a rifle you intend to stalk all weekend with. That's a part of why I chose the Deerstalker as it was handy and somewhat lightweight.

Where the .50 cal is sometimes looked at as minimal a .54 cal is often considered plenty. Why handicap yourself? Assuming you'd have a chance at and/or be interested in hunting something in the large game category.

 

[derek58]

Your concern over product availability for the .54 is pretty much unfounded. Get a bullet mold or two for your gun and make your own. Took me all of a week to get the first ladle, molds, a small Dutch oven for a lead pot and an old Coleman stove. It is actually pretty easy to do. All you need to do is start casting after doing some reading, ruin your first 100 or so bullets you cast and soon enough they come out better than the factory made ones.

Also, you are going to be making internet purchases for some things eventually anyways. Track of the Wolf has everything you will ever need for the rifle.

The .54 shoots flatter than a .50

Larger bullets = more whompability

All that said...I mainly use my .50 instead of the .54 for the hunt. But that is mainly due to it being the gun I am most confident with at this time.

Haha unfortunately I don't have the funds, the time, nor the means to make my own ammo, and if I did, I would probably reload for centerfire to cut down on costs. But that is something I will consider doing in the future. For now, I just need to invest in a rifle and start shooting it.

Do you think I need more whompability on deer though? The deer I shot at 106yds went down just fine, though you could certainly attribute that to good shot placement. Decisions are hard sometimes! :idunno:

 

[cynthialee]

Minute of deer at 100+ yards works great.

:thumbsup:

 

[rodwha]

For just medium game and to 100 yds you could even use a .45 cal. A .50 cal is plenty. A .54 gives a few more options but also reduces wind drift a bit. That's a lot of drift at 100 yds. And that's if you have a good idea of how hard it's blowing and in which direction and how that will effect the path.

Quite frankly after 75 yds it becomes a bit hard if it's breezy with a ball. The 320 grn Lee REAL has a BC of 0.189 but you'd have to cast for these unless you find someone who does and sells them (I think @ccmountainman does).

 

[derek58]

For just medium game and to 100 yds you could even use a .45 cal. A .50 cal is plenty. A .54 gives a few more options but also reduces wind drift a bit. That's a lot of drift at 100 yds. And that's if you have a good idea of how hard it's blowing and in which direction and how that will effect the path.

Quite frankly after 75 yds it becomes a bit hard if it's breezy with a ball. The 320 grn Lee REAL has a BC of 0.189 but you'd have to cast for these unless you find someone who does and sells them (I think @ccmountainman does).

Thanks for the data!! This dilemma is making me rip my hair out a bit, but I'm guessing I'm not exactly the only one to have had to make the tough choice...I'm sure I'll settle on something eventually after I think it over for a bit.

 

[azmntman]

Derek...I have been afflicted with this muzzlelaoder thing sinse 1970, too many eppisodes of Fess Parker in Dan'l Boone. I would suggest, without reinstating all the above arguments, that you get what you want to get. That said I do also recommend a .54. For all the reasons above and adding the hole in the target is a lil bit bigger and thus much more cool :grin: In fact, of all the BP guns I own if I had to grab one and run I would take my .58.

Ya gotta remeber were shooting BP here. We (most of us) dont expect to shoot a buck at 180 yards. We "hunt" our way to 75 if possible and shoot at 100 if we must. We practise so we hit where we aim at the distance the gun was intended to reliable take game.

As for being poor and not having the funds? You will soon see that this affliction is funded much like a child. "they just happen" and we make a means for it. Also you will find shooting em is ALOT less expensive than any cf modern. We (most of us) shoot maybe 10-20 rounds an outing which dont cost much and is much more rewarding than blasting away 3 30 round clips in an AR! BP will make you a better shot all around as well.

As Ms Cindy said just get yer stuff slowly and start making yer own for even more savings. I would do it but my first time I did it in the garage at 10 below and the fumes stayed in the garage and sought there way upwards to my wife's sitting/sewing zone and I am forbidden to play with molten lead again (I may try again OUTSIDE soon, its been like 20-25 years, she may not even catch me :hmm: ).

BUT...a .50 has brought down two large elk for me before my affliction resulted in the "aquiring" of 3 .54's and 3 .58's. You can always go conical in the .50 (I have never needed to in the .54 or .58). BTW elk have an incredible will to live and are not easy to drop right there (DRT), for deer the prb in .50 is no issue.

Just dont expect more out of them than they are designed for and have fun. Remember, there just gonna happen, like my daughter, our "I know my body baby". So if ya want the .50 get it, a .54 will be right around the corner.

 

[cynthialee]

Haha unfortunately I don't have the funds, the time, nor the means to make my own ammo,

I'm adding that to my list of "kids say the funniest things"... :haha:

yeah that one was pretty silly

pretty sure my entire lead casting set up I first put together is less expensive than a couple boxes of bullets for the .243 I used to use. Now those were expensive!

 

[derek58]

Okay guys, I'd like to request that if you don't have anything constructive to say, please don't bother replying. You don't know my life, my schedule, nor my finances. You can speculate all you want, that's your decision, but when I say I don't have the means at this time, I mean it. Logistically, it would not be realistic for me to start making my own ammo. Not to mention that I don't feel the need to dive deep into the finer aspects of a sport I'm just getting into.

This thread is about getting advice for my first BP rifle. I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[derek58]

Derek...I have been afflicted with this muzzlelaoder thing sinse 1970, too many eppisodes of Fess Parker in Dan'l Boone. I would suggest, without reinstating all the above arguments, that you get what you want to get. That said I do also recommend a .54. For all the reasons above and adding the hole in the target is a lil bit bigger and thus much more cool :grin: In fact, of all the BP guns I own if I had to grab one and run I would take my .58.

Ya gotta remeber were shooting BP here. We (most of us) dont expect to shoot a buck at 180 yards. We "hunt" our way to 75 if possible and shoot at 100 if we must. We practise so we hit where we aim at the distance the gun was intended to reliable take game.

As for being poor and not having the funds? You will soon see that this affliction is funded much like a child. "they just happen" and we make a means for it. Also you will find shooting em is ALOT less expensive than any cf modern. We (most of us) shoot maybe 10-20 rounds an outing which dont cost much and is much more rewarding than blasting away 3 30 round clips in an AR! BP will make you a better shot all around as well.

As Ms Cindy said just get yer stuff slowly and start making yer own for even more savings. I would do it but my first time I did it in the garage at 10 below and the fumes stayed in the garage and sought there way upwards to my wife's sitting/sewing zone and I am forbidden to play with molten lead again (I may try again OUTSIDE soon, its been like 20-25 years, she may not even catch me :hmm: ).

BUT...a .50 has brought down two large elk for me before my affliction resulted in the "aquiring" of 3 .54's and 3 .58's. You can always go conical in the .50 (I have never needed to in the .54 or .58). BTW elk have an incredible will to live and are not easy to drop right there (DRT), for deer the prb in .50 is no issue.

Just dont expect more out of them than they are designed for and have fun. Remember, there just gonna happen, like my daughter, our "I know my body baby". So if ya want the .50 get it, a .54 will be right around the corner.

Thanks for the tips, the jokes, and the knowledge! It really sounds like most of you here recommend going .54. Do you have any recommendations for rifles? Since someone mentioned it above, I've really been looking hard at TVM, but I'm certainly open to checking out more options. Thanks a bunch!

 

[nwtradegun]

check track of the wolf. many fine used rifles at good prices.

 

[bubba.50]

Okay guys, I'd like to request that if you don't have anything constructive to say, please don't bother replying. You don't know my life, my schedule, nor my finances. You can speculate all you want, that's your decision, but when I say I don't have the means at this time, I mean it. Logistically, it would not be realistic for me to start making my own ammo. Not to mention that I don't feel the need to dive deep into the finer aspects of a sport I'm just getting into.

This thread is about getting advice for my first BP rifle. I'd like to keep it that way.

all of this leads me right back to my original suggestion of a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. an excellent gun at a relatively modest price. an extra barrel or two greatly increases versatility, again, keepin' costs modest. and later on IF/when the BP bug bites and if/when life situations improve, assumin' you take good care of it, you can get most of yer money back to put towards that in-the-white or 'kit' gun you more desire.

and as you get more 'into' it, you can Johnny Cash a castin' outfit like CynthiaLee says or buy a Lee pot for about 60 bucks & a couple Lee moulds for 20 bucks each & have another aspect of the sport to keep ya busy in the down times when nothin's in season & weather ain't cooperatin' to go to the range.

luck to ya & have a good'en neighbor, bubba.

 

[rodwha]

I suppose I'm more utilitarian and simple, but I'd be upset if I took a really nice rifle out and scratched the stock up. I've seen plenty of fantastic wooden sticks and would love to own one but I think I'd be hesitant to take it out into the woods often.

My Lyman Deerstalker isn't fancy but it's nice enough. The fit is good.

I don't know where you'll be hunting and how far you'll likely travel and through inclines/declines and whatnot but I'd fancy a Lyman Deerstalker or Trade Rifle, or a Pedersoli Country Hunter if you'll be doing a lot of walking. If still hunting then weight and size isn't much of a concern. Granted I'm a small guy at 5'8" and 165 lbs, but a 24" barrel at 7.5 lbs seems ideal to me over a 32" barrel and 9 lbs.

 

[cynthialee]

I was just pulling your chain a little.
Sorry.

You are right, we do not know what your day to day is like.

The main reason I am so strongly pushing casting is the price of round balls from the companies who make them are so much higher than the end cost of casting your own. Even if you can't find some free lead, RotoMetals sells the stuff at rather decent prices.

I save every piece of lead I come across that I can. I ask for it, I save recovered bullets, ballast is often lead. I haven't paid for a single bullet I have shot in years other than the propane it takes to melt my lead.

 

[derek58]

Okay so I'm just going to reply to all of you in one post because I'm feeling lazy. While I have no doubt the Lymans are good shooting rifles, I already have shot muzzleloaders a reasonable amount...enough to know what I'm doing at least. The thing is, they have just never been mine, and they've mostly been .50. So at this point, by my logic, I don't really need a muzzleloader to learn how to use one, and I know I already like shooting them. A mistake I've made in the past is to get something budget and end up just wishing I'd saved and spent a bit more on something I really wanted. I don't need the fancy frills like engraving or anything, but having a well-built rifle with nice wood and good fit/finish is something I value pretty highly. While I don't plan on beating the manure out of it, I'm not going to baby it, and don't mind if it acquires signs of use. All of my guns are tools that I use.

In response to Cynthialee, I see what you're saying. Unfortunately reloading centerfire or muzzleloader isn't realistic in my current situation. I live in a house with a roommate in the city, and she has several dogs and cats. Smelting lead isn't super realistic. Nor is reloading, unfortunately. I am lucky in that my cousin, who got me into muzzleloading, does make his own ammo, so I can get some from him from time to time. Perhaps one day when I have my own place with a decent-sized yard, I can get into that myself.

 

[Boomerang]

If you are looking at a fancier gun around the $1200 range, take a look at the Pedersoli Rocky Mtn Hawken. Cabelas has it on sale once or twice a year for about $900.