First muzzleloader advice

[charlie b]

In Oregon, you can only hunt with a full lead projectile. As a result, if I were to shoot conicals, I would be limited to a maxi-ball/maxi-hunter type projectile, which I understand to have marginally better external ballistics to a PRB, and arguably similar terminal ballistics to a PRB. And they are definitely more expensive (yes, I get it, if I cast my own, it'd be cheaper, but that's not the point). At this time, I'm leaning towards round ball/slow twist

No you are not limited to maxi type bullets. You can use PP bullets or something like the Hornady Great Plains.

The PP bullets will go as far as you can shoot with the right barrel.

Or, if you get a faster twist barrel there are several grease groove long distance bullets you could use as well.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Derek,

I'm glad we haven't run you off. For the most part our comments reflect on our own bad decisions in the selection of our favorite muzzleloading rifle.

The big obstacle is finding that really nice rifle for $1200. That keeps you in the kit range since for the most part the kits reflect the price of the parts without most of the labor cost. Since your resources (place to build a rifle and tools and hand tools) are limited, we should recommend that you limit kit building to finish work of sanding and polishing. Read that as I think the in-the-white kit is what you would need. TVM, Tip Curtis, Pecatonica Long Rifles and other suppliers have the in-the-white kits. By proper selection of wood grade and lock parts you can control the price somewhat. A single trigger pinned in the stock will be less expensive than a double set trigger inlet. Percussion locks are slightly less expensive than flintlocks and you are looking for a percussion rifle. With the in-the-white kit the drum will be installed in the proper location with respect to the lock.

Hopefully you will find a reasonably priced used rifle that fits in your budget. You might have to defer your search until after you move to PA.

In the mean time, associate with other muzzleloading rifle shooters and get a better feel for what you want in a rifle. You will also see that its not just the rifle. Its the accouterments such as the shot bag, working rod, short starter, capper, nipple wrench, turn screws and all the items that are needed for the best shooting experience.

Davide Pedersoli is probably the largest manufacturer of production muzzleloading rifles. Even then the Pedersoli price isn't that much less than a semi-custom rifle from TVM. The market for traditional muzzleloading rifles just isn't big enough to support a lot of manufacturers.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Derek,

I have missed a deer or two because of set triggers. I also accidentially fire a gun at woodwalk shoots with the set trigger. Not way way off in an unsafe direction, but not when I was ready to put it there.

I prefer single triggers, but there's set trigger gun that shoot just fine without setting it.

Going back to the guns. The log cabin shop has a few guns that might fit the bill in your budget.

Myself, I look at the gun first, then the ignition system, then the caliber. I'm left handed with less options that right handed folks.

I don't like those shiny brass thompson centers and CVA hawkens style. However, I really enjoy my lyman great plains rifle.

Hunting season is coming soon. I advise you wait until you know well what this gun does at 25,50,75, 100, and 125 yards before using it. A modern gun in the woods is point and shoot, even much more so with a scope. to be successful with a primitive weapon, you need to know how it works well.... Wounding an animal knowing you could of done something to make the situation better is a real lousy feeling....

Patience comes up with great results on the used blackpowder market.......

Until then, make sure you have something that shoots projectiles with the same kind of sights and get used to using them.

 

[cynthialee]

Set triggers are a mixed bag for sure.
I have mixed them up a time or two and never at a good moment.

My first hunting was with modern guns and none of the rifles and shotguns I used had them and when I started shooting BP long guns most of the ones I have, have them.

When I am cool calm and collected it is easy to remember which trigger is what. But when I get excited or frustrated I mix the two up a lot.

Guess what emotions come up the most when I am hunting? Excitement and frustration...yeah A number of the opportunities I have missed weren't so much a matter of missing the target, but pulling the set trigger when I meant to pull the shooting trigger. And the worst part is that you just used the set trigger to set the trigger.
Then there are the times you go to pull the set trigger and you mixed them up again...bang. Wasted bullet. manure, now I am reloading and moving to a new shooting spot.

I have considered getting single triggers for my T/C hunting guns.

Now it isn't a complete comedy of errors. Most time I maintain my head in a calm space, and shoot just fine. But once I get flustered or giddy the mistakes start and them triggers are my biggest problem.

 

[derek58]

Hmmm...interesting thoughts across the board. Do those of you who hunt with triggers ever set the trigger? Or do you just use the heavier trigger in order to avoid an accidental discharge?

 

[Danny Ross]

fools sulphur comment got me to thinking about something else in a custom rifle, the stock style/configuration. When I got my Tip Curtis rifle I was at his shop shouldering different guns and he has a lot. I found out quickly each stock configuration has a different feel. Do to the length of pull, butt stock thickness, whether it has a flat or curved butt plate like a GPR, the amount of drop in the stock, how your hand fits the pistol grip area, how it allows for head placement. For me I found the Early Lancaster stock is what I like the best, others on here have their favorites. Also do you want a Swamped Barrel or a Straight Barrel and what length. So if you are going to spend that kind of money for a custom and you want to get it right the first time handle as many stock configurations you can get your hands on to find the one like you the best, with what type of barrel. If there are any big shoots you can get to where there are vendors (you will need to figure out who will make your gun anyway) even if they are 8 hours away go to them and look at different gun styles and shoulder them see how they all feel to you. It will be worth the effort. Also if there are any local Muzzleloading Clubs go there when they have a shoot, you should see different styles there, and see if the shooters will let you handle their guns and maybe even let you shoot them to see how a particular style feels when it goes Boom. Just some things I found out when I went to Tip Curtis's shop, it was a real learning experience from my end, it also helped to make the best choice for me. Like you I wanted to get it right the first time because I can't justify the cost to buy another custom. I know you seem to be a real fit and finish fanatic that is another reason to look at different gun builder builds. Find the person who meets your standards.

I know you are not big on production guns. Here is a thought though. Like you I didn't have a lot of money to spend at your age. If you can find a good used production gun it will be a lower cost than new one. Yeah it is going to cost you 2-4 hundred dollars depending on model and brand, still cheaper than $1,200. It will at least give you something to shoot and hunt with (in either the 50 or 54cal). Then once you have gotten your custom that you have had time to do your research on to get it right in caliber, barrel type and length, stock style, and builder, and if you don't feel you need that production gun anymore turn around and sell it. You should be able to get your money back out of it or at least close to it since you bought it used. Just something to think about. DANNY

 

[cynthialee]

Good advise. Used muzzleloaders in good condition maintain a certain amount of value.
You may even manage to turn a few bucks on the sale of the gun when you replace it with a better gun.

 

[54ball]

Since you have a Uberti Lever here is a rifle that fits your criteria.
Link 1841 Mississippi

The Mississippi is likely the most handsome military rifle ever built. It and the 1803 were truly fine rifles.

$1200 bucks....yep the quality that you say you are after....cost that much. That's just a fact. It's on the same par as a Uberti Lever.

Other guns in this class are the Rocky Mountain Hawkens and a little cheaper are the Pedersoli Frontier/Cabelas Blue Ridge....

If you want nice quality you have to pay for it.

As you can see dropping over a grand for a rifle makes the minuscule investment in lead and a bullet mold or a selection of molds, no big deal.

For a hundred bucks you can get the whole set up. Lee molds, propane stove, welding glove, a ladle and some kind of pot.

As far as reloading components. You do this every time you load a rifle. Each shot is a custom load. You will need...powder, horn or flask, caps, ball either store bought or cast at home, patch material, and a measure. Books like Lyman's Black Powder manual are good for a beginner as well.

The alternative is a cheaper lower quality rifle that's 500 bucks or more......

Sorry but the days of a top quality 300 dollar rifle and shooting set up are over. That boat has sailed long ago.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I was just about to ask about that actually haha. I've used both kinds of triggers on muzzleloaders (though for the single trigger, it was not custom). I probably like the idea of a set trigger more, but I'd like to know what the rest of you guys think? If most single trigger guns are comparable to a good single stage centerfire trigger, I doubt it will be an issue for me.

The Lyman rifle models equipped with single triggers are capable of outstanding accuracy, but not as they come from the factory. My .54 cal Trade Rifle 100 yard Grapefruit Slayer has a very smooth trigger. It took a replacement sear spring to accomplish the upgrade. The sear pivot may need to be honed to allow free and smooth movement when the retaining pivot screw is tightened. This will allow a lighter spring to tension the plunger & return it to proper position to reset after firing. For safety there is an endpoint where the sear needs enough tension to properly function, yet provide lighter trigger letoff. Many real hardware stores sell springs in their nut & bolt area, otherwise a comprehensive locksmith shop has a variety of appropriate springs available.

 

[azmntman]

I have never screwed up on a hunt with a set trigger and like em. I have though shot several feet high while target shooting with them. If I had the skill to work n hone and get a single trigger real light and smooth I would likely prefer it though :idunno:

 

[derek58]

Anyone have experience with TVM single triggers vs set triggers, specifically?

 

[derek58]

I agree, I definitely need to handle more guns and styles before I can make an informed decision. I plan on swinging by the store later this week on one of my days off to handle their rifles, now that I have a better knowledge base than I did the first time.

 

[Mad Professor]

I started out years ago with a 58 cal lyman and it still works well with conicals or PRB.

I later got the "addiction" and started collecting TC hawkens and renegades. This was back when TC was still TC and their service dept was the best. GM made excellent drop in barrels back then and those with a Davis trigger and you had a tack driver. I can recommend that combination if you can find one or the parts. A slow twist will do PRB and a fast twist for conicals.

Member here IdahoRon has built some awesome fast twist long range TCs this way also upgrading the sights with lyman 57 peeps.

The TCs are not a custom gun but well made and last a lifetime if taken care of.

Lots of other choices to look at and there is already lots of good advice given already.

 

[dragnetbill]

Hmmm...interesting thoughts across the board. Do those of you who hunt with triggers ever set the trigger? Or do you just use the heavier trigger in order to avoid an accidental discharge?

Did once, years ago. The discharge scared me and the squirrels that were in the trees high above the intended target which was a whitetail doe.
I decided then and there that set trigger use wasn't ideal with increased adrenaline and cold fingers.
The deer, however, I believe was in favor of the set trigger use; she stood there watching (perhaps also laughing) until I was almost done reloading.

 

[Mr. Troll]

I have one with the set trigger. I consider it my "target" Hawken. 1" barrel, Lyman globe front..all the rest have single triggers....

 

[Danny Ross]

When I hunt I always use the set trigger. I have found when target shooting with it, to lay your finger on the side of the firing trigger just forward of the finger joint, applying lateral pressure to the firing trigger, after the set trigger is pulled. You can hold on target a long time doing it this way. Then when ready to fire, slowly bend the joint allowing the finger pad to come around to fire the gun. I have done this so much it is instinctive for me. If you are placing your finger directly in front of the firing trigger, with the set trigger pulled, the excitement of buck fever, yeah it would be very easy to set the rifle off especially if you are wearing gloves. DANNY

 

[54ball]

Anyone have experience with TVM single triggers vs set triggers, specifically?

While I do not own a TVM rifle I have handled a few. They are good rifles.

As far as triggers.....simple single or Davis double lever set

It depends on how the smith built the rifle. A simple trigger should have nice crisp pull.

A set should trip with a very light touch or "hair" when fired set. This hair trigger is adjustable by the set screw between the triggers....to a point.
Unset ( firing the rifle with just the front trigger without setting the rear trigger) the trigger pull should be crisp and functional.

While not as crisp or as light as a simple trigger, the trigger should be usable as a hunting trigger capable of good accuracy. It should not be uncomfortable and pull the rifle off the target when the trigger is pulled.

This all depends on how the gunsmith built the rifle. It takes time and skill to get this right. Sometimes it takes extra work on the lock (tuning) or tuning and polishing the trigger aassembly as well. Trigger placement for leverage is critical on any type of trigger.

With all that said factory rifles like TC...Lyman's....have horrible set triggers. They are decent fired set but when fired unset factory rifles tend to have a long hard pull.

The average TVM will have better triggers than say a Lyman. If I was going with a TVM I would request special attention to the triggers.

 

[charlie b]

I have a set trigger on my Lyman GPH. It is good for target use.

A good single trigger is better for just about everything. The only exception is if someone sets it for too light a pull.

 

[derek58]

So it sounds like the trigger style debate is a pretty mixed bag. Well of the 2 TVM rifles I'm down to, one has a single trigger and the other has a double set trigger. Aside from the contour of the cheek rest and a few minor aesthetics, the triggers seem like the only major difference between the two rifles (western fur trade and late lancaster). So if I can figure out which trigger style fits me best, it will pretty much solve that problem.

 

[dakotaelkslayer]

Derek,
I hope your search is going well, but I thought I would try to muddy the waters for you a bit. One thing I want you to think about is the fact that "old school" muzzleloaders are not in style anymore...very few people want them; think about that.
I just got into the whole sidelock thing, and you know what I learned? They are CHEAP if you buy used, but NOT at a specialty muzzleloader shop. This year, from pawnshops, I have bought a Pedersoli Frontier .36cal, a TC Renegade .54 w/ additional .50 barrel, CVA Youth Hunter, TC Hawken .50, CVA Hawken, and a .45 Traditions Kentucky Flintlock. The only one I paid more than $200 is that sweet flintlock, and all those guns are in really nice shape. Most of the rifles were around $100-$125.
So Derek, my advice to you is simple... Go spend $4 and change on a bobber light from the local fishing shop. Then, once a week, drive around to all the places that sell used guns and look for something that catches your eye. Turn on the bobber light and drop it down the bore...and make an offer. Should you buy a .50 or .54? Why not buy them both if they are cheap? Moderate twist or slow twist? Same answer, buy both!
It may be really tough if you are after a period correct rifle, but hey, I wear Gortex when I hunt, not buckskins, so it really doesn't matter to me.

Good Luck,
Jim