first post season cleaning, arrrgh rust!! assistance requested

[sojourner]

Hello all,

New to muzzleloading. I have a Lyman Trade flint 50 rifle. Bought it for late flintlock deer season in PA. I did my first post season cleaning and I believe I have a problem. (I have done barrell cleaning after sighting in and hunting and have not had a problem)

Post season cleaning:
I cleaned the barrell out w/ hot soapy water (cleaning jag and cotton patch). Then with hot water (almost boiling point). Then I ran patches through it until it was dry. Then I ran a few patches of ballistol. Then I ran dry patches until they came out dry. Then I set it muzzle down in my house for 2 days (was recommended so that any liquids would drain out).

Well now I have what appears to be rust on a portion of the inside of the muzzle end of the barrell. It looks like something dripped down and caused brown discoloration (rust) on the inside of the barrell). I tried ballistol, CLP, etc. ... and could not get the rusting off the inside of the barrell.

Is there anything I can do to get the rust off the inside of the barrell?? I'd hate to have to buy another barrell since I bought the rifle only a month ago. I cannot believe that what I did caused rust.

Second question. I bought it at dixons, good shop. The person told me to NOT remove the touch hole. Well, in my vigorous cleaning out w/ hot water and patches, the touch hole loosened. I can unscrew it out and screw it back in. It easily spins out or in. Should I be replacing the touch hole? Should I be putting some lock-tite on it? How far in should it be screwed?

Thanks in advance for all your help to a newbie.

P.S. I have a jpg image of the rust, but I do not see an option to upload the image to the post.

 

[pegesus59]

When you clean the barrel with hot soapy water, you need to rinse it with hot water then let tit dry for a little while. The heated barrel will dry fairley fast. Then you need to oil it very well for at least three days in a row. The hot soapy water will clean the fouling, but also remove the natural iol in the barrel, opening the pores. The barrel will be very susceptilbe to rust, if the posre are now reoiled. The oil will soak in overnight, and leave the surface dry again. Three days is usually enought to stop this rust. As for cleaning the rust you now have, try some fine valve grinding compound on a few patches. It will not remove it all, but what is left will not harm the barrel. Then reoil the barrel.
The touch hole liner should be screwed in until tight and flush with the surface of the barrel. Don't use lock tight, because you may need to replace the liner in the future.
I use Simple Green as a cleaner after shooting, and it works well with out the heat. You may want to give that a try. Good luck. Robert

 

[paulvallandigham]

The mistake was getting the cart and horse reversed. You should run dry patches down the barrel to dry it out after the rinse, and THEN put ballistoil in the barrel as a preservative.

Once a week thereafter, run a new patch with ballistoil down the barrel to refresh the oil and keep the barrel from being exposed to air. Store the gun with the rifle either level, as on a rifle rack, or with the muzzle down, with a wad of paper to catch oil that gravity takes out of the gun. You don't want to store a gun with the mozzle pointing up, as the oil will work down into the action, soften the wood it soaks, which weakens the wood stock at its weakest point, and then the oil congeals to block the flash channel.

To clear the flash channel before the next time you shoot the gun, you will need to use a wire to mechanically clear the channel, then fire a couple of caps, to burn the congealed oil, then flush the barrel, nipple, and flash channel with alcohol, to remove any remaining oil, and crud, followed by drying the barrel out with several clean patches. When its clean, and dry, and empty, you can blow down the barrel and listen and feel for air coming out the flash channel, or nipple, if its in place. On a flintlock, you are looking to see and hear air rushing out the touch hole. Only then are you ready to put a new charge of powder down the barrel and load the gun to fire.

I have been using Young Country 1000 lube( now sold as NL1000, Wonderlube, Bore Butter, and probably under several other names) to protect my barrel during storage, with only a very rare visit from rust. Ballistoil is better, and I just received a can of it to begin using. Also, a member here advocates using a product called CorrosionX, which is sold in Automotive sections of discount houses, and auto parts stores. I have not tried CorrosionX, but he is very big on it, and it sounds like it will work. Some gun parts he left out on a table in his home in New Orleans were coated with CorrosionX just before Katrina, and while his guns in his gun safe were rusted, the parts on the table apparently came through the flooding without any rust at all. That would make a very good commercial for the product.

You can help yourself in the future, by dispensing with using boiling water, Not only is it dangerous to use, but its unnecessary to use such hot water. Water is a universal solvent, and the soap works to break up acidic crud chemically. A bore brush can be used on a truly dirty barrel. Use TEPID water, that is, water that is about skin temperature. If all you have is cold water, then use it.

The flash rust you have now is due to the fact that the gun was in a humid indoor environment when the barrel was hotter than the ambient air temperature. Water condensed on the inside of the barrel and rust resulted. You can take the rust off with ballistoil and some cleaning patches. If you want an absolutely smooth bore again, you can buy a product called JB Bore Cleaner, or just shooth the gun a dozen shots and let the fire and patched round ball polish the lands again.

Just don't make a habit of letting the barrel rust because you don't know what you are doing. After this long tome, you have no more excuses. Join the club. In case you think you are the only guy who ever did this to his gun, ask yourself how I could know all this stuff? Just be nice enough NOT to ask me HOW I KNOW!

Paul

 

[paulvallandigham]

As ot the touchhole liner, Put some laquer, or Lock Tite on the thread and turn it back in to the point where it does not extend into the barrel and become a bore obstruction to your cleaning rod and cleaning jag. It should not be removed regularly for cleaning.

As long as it is out, or you can take it out, do so, and put a light down the barrel so you can check the face of the breech plug, and see if its smooth, or has a small groove in it to accomodate that touch hole. If its grooved, you will want to add a step to your cleaning procedure, and that will be to use a vent pick to scrape that groove clean, since a plug scraper, attached to your ramrod, won't be able to reach into the groove, and only alcohol could possibly dissolve crud that builds there. You still have carbon build-up that will have to be mechanially removed, in order for your lube, or ballistoil to reach in the groove and protect it from rust between uses.

Once you know what is there, you will have no reason to remove the liner, unless it somehow fails in some way. Then it can be replaced. If you drill the touch hole out to at least 1/16", you should get very reliable ignition. Some guns, like mine will still hiccup every now and again, and then you can open that touch hole up to 5/64" to cure it once and for all. Most flash in the pans are caused because the touch hole is too small, and the heat does not get into the barrel from the burning priming powder to ignite the main charge.

Hope that helps.

 

[FTW]

I use water that was boiling before I took it off the stove.I pump it through the barrel until it's to hot to hold with your bare hand.That way it dries almost as soon as you turn it muzzle down to drain.Then put birchwood casey sheath on patch or 3 and on the outside too.Make sure some runs out of the touch hole,I take the vent liner out and oil the threads or antiseize.Put the barrel back in the stock.Next day patch it with corrosion-x. I have one I got 30 years ago that rust blew out the nipple the first time I ran a patch down the bore.It was smooth though no ruff spots.Bronze brushed it then patches with hoppesThen acetone to get the hoppes out.Then 3 patches with birchwood casey blue and rust remover.Then oil,I'm still shooting it today.

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings old bean,

welcome to the club.if the bore is now well lubed and the rust stopped. just leave it alone till the next time you go shooting. then do like paul suggested, shoot the rust out..

don't worry about having destroyed the bore.it just looks nasty..

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[Blizzard of '93]

You should get some metal preservative of your choice on the barrel as soon as it is dry after cleaning. Try a 3-M ultra fine hand pad over the next size down jag to polish the barrel.

 

[walruskid1]

well, you had i post for loctite and one against. i'll throw a third opinion into the fray. i use never-seize on mine. i don't take it out for normal cleaning, but i do remove it at the once a year end of season cleaning.

 

[Old Salt]

There's a possiblity you did not get the patent breech area dry and some of the moisture from there ran down the barrel. I use a 9mm jag on a 30 cal. cleanig rod to clean and dry that area.

It doesn't make sense to me NOT to remove the touchhole while cleaning. I have the GPR in flint and always remove the touch hole. I don't take it out until I've put the barrel in a bucket of water and ran a few tight patches up and down the barrel. That will loosen up whatever crud is in the threads enough to get the touchole out without damagiing the screw or allen slots. Once everything is clean and dry I put a small amount of antisieze on the male threads and screw it back in finger tight.

Old Salt

 

[boar]

I have my liners so I can get them out if I have to. Just like your nipples in cap guns, If mine don't go off with two caps, I take out nipple and put dab of powder in and they will go off. Same with the flintlock, you might have to add a little powder to get it to go off. I have done both. Dilly

 

[MikeFromON]

I take the vent liner out every time I clean my rifles. It makes it easier for the water to flush out any leftover soap or particles of fouling etc. Somtimes I have to run it under hot water to make it easier for me to unscrew it. It often needs a good soapy scub before it will come out. Many common vegetable oils are excellent rust removers. I have had some minor surface rust in my barrels and I found Murphy's oil soap took care of it. My post-shooting cleaning sequence goes like this:

1) Remove barrel and lock from stock.
2) Remove flint from lock and vent liner from barrel. I put the vent liner and flint in a cup of hot water to soak while I clean everything else.
3) Flush barrel with hot water, then I fill the tub a couple inches and let the barrel soak for 10-15 mins.
4)Pour the dirty water out of barrel then flush it with hot water again.
5)I measure out a capful of Murphy's Oil Soap and pour that into the barrel by dribbling it around the muzzle so it oozes down the inner walls of the barrel. I give it a couple of minutes to make it's way down to the breech.
6)I give the barrel at least 20 swipes (up and down) with a bronze brush, then flush it out with more hot water till water comes out clear.
7)Immediately after rinsing, I run a dry patch down the bore. I cut long strips of paper towel for patches and wrap them around the jag with about a 1/4" of patch protruding past the end of the jag. The first patch will soak up almost all of the leftover moisture.
8)I continue dry patching until the patches come out virtually spotless (usually 8-10 swipes). At this point, the barrel is done.
9)I then run the lock under hot water in the kitchen sink then scrub the pan and any other part that is blackened with a toothbrush and a drop of Murphy's. I also scrub the flint till it is clean. Rinse and dry. I will blow on the back of the lock to get as much of the moisture out from behind the springs, etc. as I can, then I wipe the whole thing with a paper towel till it is dry. From time to time, I will spray the back of the lock down with lubricant. I take the vent liner out of its soaking cup and rinse it under the tap as well. If necessary, I scrub it or pick at it with whatever is handy then I wipe it dry, then I squirt a bit of lanolin-based lubricant on the threads and screw it back in.
10)I put the flint back in and re-install the lock and barrel in the stock. Done!

I don't oil my barrels because I have found that they do not rust as long as they are bone dry when I put them away. I check all my guns regularly with a tiny flashlight I can slip into the bore and they all remain shiny clean for months after I put them away. I would guess your area has poor air quality if you are having problems with surface rust on your barrels or other ferrous objects.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for all the replies. I am going to have to try that this weekend. Now I'm off to the archery shop to get work done on my bow.

Again, thanks. I may be checking in this weekend w/ further questions on the cleaning.

 

[tg]

You will do just as well with cold water when cleaning your gun, the main thing is to get it dry before lubing with lube of choice, many top builders install and file of the liner to flush it with the barrel and it only comes out with a chisle or easy out if it needs replaced, these are builders/shooters with many many years of experience, same goes for most of the cold water guys they have been doing it a long time...draw your own conclusions based on your own controled tests, you may be surprised at how many old wives tales still exist in this sport.

 

[mbw907]

I don't recommend hot soapy water on your bow. :rotf: But at least you won't have to swab it between shots :winking: Good luck in whatever you may be shooting.

 

[ffffg]

i have a goodien barrel that i put in a tc pennsylvania match.. i rusted the breach some darn how.. dont even know how i did it.. it will completely eat up a patch when you shoot it, lucky to find any pieces at all.,, but still would shoot a 4-5 inch group at 100 yards.. i havent shot it for years, still have it.. it really really shot well before i wrecked it.. dave

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening Sojourner,

First, go out for a day of shooting, and see if that will not lap out the bore rust.

Wipe the bore after each shot with a cleaning solvent likes Hoppes Nine Plus.

When I started shooting muzzle loading rifles 53 years ago, cleaning the bore with the tradition soapy water was used by everybody.

I have not used soapy water in at least 40 years now.

Paulv is absolutely right about the hazards of using soapy water and that there are better, safer BP cleaners availabe today.

As most everybody here on the ML Forum knows, my personal favorite is Black-Solve from Dixie Gun Works. Hoppes Number Nine Plus an excellant choice and is my second choice. I used the Hoppes within a few weeks of it's introduction years ago and still keep a large bottle of it in my shop.

If you want my opinion for cleaning BP rifles, do a search under my name.

I have posted in detail how I clean up a BP rifle, and have never had after-rust in the bore.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[redwing]

What you say is so true. I also started out shooting BP over 50 years ago. my first trip to Friendship was in 62'. Like most I started out with water down the bore. I found out that was not the best way to go early on. In todays world I like the Number #9 Plus. :thumbsup:

 

[Flintandsteel]

I guess I'm a little confused.
#1 black powder will clean up quite well with plain old tap water. Unless you're using some kind of non-water soluble lube.

Hot water will indeed take anything out of the barrel in the way of a rest inhibitor.

I use room temp water with a drop of dish soap, clean thoroughly and dry, coat with Breakfree CLP, and absolutely NEVER have any rust.

Of course I do live in Arizona, that may help some.

 

[rickystl]

Hey John and Redwing. Remember wayyyy back when I was young trying to use REGULAR Hoppes to clean a BP gun? And how fast Hoppes came out with the 9+. Funny now, but wasn't back then. Gosh, how many years ago was that? Anyway,great thread. Picked up a couple new cleaning tips. Thanks all. :thumbsup:

 

[redwing]

Rick, Yes I think I did some thing like that myself. We no longer use soft iron barrels. We use very fine steel and have many things that clean and preserve steel. I don't think anyone would use water to clean a fine old Mdl. 70 Winchester. But they would pour water in a fine round bottom Getz???? :hmm: