I think you're right. Gun nuts of every stripe, benchrest shooters, handgunners, varmint hunters, etc., all have their particular obsessions with the minutiea of the craft. I used to be shocked that some of my center fire shooting, deer hunting friends just bought the correct caliber of rifle ammunition without regard to manufacturer, bullet type, "Supreme" or "Gold" vs standard production. I've known handloaders who would weigh not only every single charge down to the tenth of a grain, but would weigh each bullet as well. Some would measure the depth of the primer seat to ensure that each one was the same. Here, we have guys who swear by different "Moose Snot" recipes, types and thickness of patches, cleaning methods, barrel break-in routines. On and on. It's rare that you see a thread of over ten posts in which more than two people agree completely on anything. All of which means that the shooting sports are infinitely interesting and varied and you have to spend a lifetime continually refining just what it is that works for you. And that's why it's such a hoot! How tedious it would be if you bought a rifle and ammunition and never tinkered with the stuff. Might as well shoot golf as deer in that case.roundball said:
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First shot confidence
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I've had pretty good luck with the first shot, lately. Thanks to cayugad and his WW/90% alcohol mixture, I found that a squeaky clean and dry barrel for the first shot will deliver the PRB purty darn close to the group for fouled shots. Usually less than 2 inches out at 90 yards, often less than that. This is shooting RS exclusively.
Sabots (y'all calm down now! :nono: ) do well with this approach also. Conicals are more fussy, so I don't have a working technique with them yet....some days I can't get them to group, period.
Last season I deliberately left a load in my Cabela carbine from November until March to see how it would be affected. Because of the 1:24 twist of that gun, it was a sabot ( :nono: ) loaded over 80gr. of RS. When I took it to the range and fired it, it went exactly where expected at 90 yards with no hint of delayed ignition. I will say, however, that that little carbine shooting sabots, ranks with my slow twist PRB guns as being the most consistently accurate of my MLs.
Thumbs, I still use the boiling water rinse at the end of my barrel cleaning and hate it. I get a lot of flash rust as you say. However, I thought it was necessary to get the barrel good and hot so it will thoroughly dry. Still it seems to cause the problem that drying is meant to prevent. How do you dry your barrel, by swabbing alone? How about drawing air through it with a vacuum cleaner at the muzzle? I'd love to ditch the boiling water thing.
Bob
Sabots (y'all calm down now! :nono: ) do well with this approach also. Conicals are more fussy, so I don't have a working technique with them yet....some days I can't get them to group, period.
Last season I deliberately left a load in my Cabela carbine from November until March to see how it would be affected. Because of the 1:24 twist of that gun, it was a sabot ( :nono: ) loaded over 80gr. of RS. When I took it to the range and fired it, it went exactly where expected at 90 yards with no hint of delayed ignition. I will say, however, that that little carbine shooting sabots, ranks with my slow twist PRB guns as being the most consistently accurate of my MLs.
Thumbs, I still use the boiling water rinse at the end of my barrel cleaning and hate it. I get a lot of flash rust as you say. However, I thought it was necessary to get the barrel good and hot so it will thoroughly dry. Still it seems to cause the problem that drying is meant to prevent. How do you dry your barrel, by swabbing alone? How about drawing air through it with a vacuum cleaner at the muzzle? I'd love to ditch the boiling water thing.
Bob
While waiting for Thumbs to reply, I'll inject that the only way I clean MLs is with steaming hot soapy water and a hot water rinse.short_start said:
The flash rust is easy to prevent, you simply have to dry patch the barrel immediately after finishing with the hot water rinse.
I don't mean 3-4 minutes later after I've gone in to pour a cup of coffee, I literally mean I lift the barrel out of the bucket, lay it down on the carpeted work bench, and immediately run a couple of tight fitting dry patches up and down to pull out any remaining dampness...never have flash rust as long as I do that...but if I delay a few minutes it'll start developing a flim.
The good news is even if it does it's not permanent assuming you realize it right then...it's just on the surface and running a tight fitting patch soaked with WD40 up and down a couple times wipes it right off.
paulvallandigham
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Water is the solvent, not the heat. Just use tepid water, ( skin temperature) to clean the barrel, and you will stop getting flash rust. If you have crud hanging in the corners of the grooves, then use a bore brush and cleaning patch around it to get down into the grooves and break the crud free. Even boiling water would take a lot of time to do this chore, and you can do it much better and much faster using the bore brush, and patch routine.
Also, boiling water shows no advantage in removing the gray, graphite, powder that gets into the pores of the steel in the bore. I found I had to use a cleaning patch soaked with alcohol to remove that stuff.
Also, boiling water shows no advantage in removing the gray, graphite, powder that gets into the pores of the steel in the bore. I found I had to use a cleaning patch soaked with alcohol to remove that stuff.
Blizzard of '93
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before loading plug the nipple w/toothpick (or flash hole) and pour a little alcohol (denatured is best) down the spout and slosh around a bit to remove any contamination form storing lube. if a capper pull the drum screw if made with and pour out the alky and if not pull the nipple. let it dry a bit and run a pipe cleaner in thar and clean flash channel good. when loading give the breech opposite the lock a few whacks to knock some grains into the channel before seating PRB/slug and she'll go BOOM for sure. you can pop a cap on if you wish but it ain't neccesary just make sure the nipple is clear with yer pick/pin. I use Remington caps, seem little stouter than CCI's.
Thanks for the tips, Roundball and Paul. I'm usually pretty quick getting a dry patch down the tube after the boiling water rinse, within a minute normally, but still get the rust. I've noticed that if there's any delay (dropped the rod, can't find a clean patch) the rust is worse. After a couple of dry patches, I hit it with B-Butter patches while still hot and they bring out more rust. If I wipe again with B-Butter next day when cool, the patches always come out looking good.
I don't think the flash rust does much, if any, damage. However, it might be cumulative. The iron for the rust has to come from somewhere.
The tepid water rinse is worth a try. I'll then use the mini-vac to draw air through it for drying. Boiling water is probably too extreme. It's not as though there are germs to be killed.
Bob
I don't think the flash rust does much, if any, damage. However, it might be cumulative. The iron for the rust has to come from somewhere.
The tepid water rinse is worth a try. I'll then use the mini-vac to draw air through it for drying. Boiling water is probably too extreme. It's not as though there are germs to be killed.
Bob
I have had this same conversation with my buddy and I was thinking this same thing and what I have determines is that most of the other gun parts I clean are allready "BLUED" up and I beleive there is a micorscopic film over the RAW metal. Uner a magnifying glass, if you take and score or scratch the blue metal you can see some flash rust... minute really but it is there. Now, the difference is that the inside of the barrel of the ML is RAW and the other parts aren't? Is that a safe assumption?
Can you be too anal about the cleaning as well? it always been odd that you clean the snot out of it and then foul it to get it to shoot straight with good grouping? Seemed odd to me.
I have been using BOILING water and most of the time the barrel gets so hot you need to hold it with a glove. I too lay it down and swap it then blow it out, and see some surface rust later. Is the heated barrel causing some form of microscopic layer of moisture and that is where the rust comes from? It's not actually the metal causing the rust because it's scrubbed away, it's the temperature difference causing condensation? Doesn't the air from the vaccuum cleaner or compressor expedite the colling process and then a couple quick patches and your all set.
While I like the idea of shooting a shot from a clean barrel, I beleive that not all barrels are created equally.
Storing ML's muzzle down for long periods of time ( Between hunting seaons) is a good idea... but I like to getout and shoot mine more often than that! But that is spot on...
GREAT TOPIC HERE GUYS!!! Thanks for touching upon it!
IdPnB
Can you be too anal about the cleaning as well? it always been odd that you clean the snot out of it and then foul it to get it to shoot straight with good grouping? Seemed odd to me.
I have been using BOILING water and most of the time the barrel gets so hot you need to hold it with a glove. I too lay it down and swap it then blow it out, and see some surface rust later. Is the heated barrel causing some form of microscopic layer of moisture and that is where the rust comes from? It's not actually the metal causing the rust because it's scrubbed away, it's the temperature difference causing condensation? Doesn't the air from the vaccuum cleaner or compressor expedite the colling process and then a couple quick patches and your all set.
While I like the idea of shooting a shot from a clean barrel, I beleive that not all barrels are created equally.
Storing ML's muzzle down for long periods of time ( Between hunting seaons) is a good idea... but I like to getout and shoot mine more often than that! But that is spot on...
GREAT TOPIC HERE GUYS!!! Thanks for touching upon it!
IdPnB
Most of us have at some time in our lives had a Chemistry class. In that class more than once it was noted that heat will either speed up or start a chemical reaction between various chemicals.
Most if not all water has some air in it. 20 percent of this air is oxygen and the water helps the oxygen molecules come into intimate contact with the iron molecules in the steel.
In the case of "flash rust" which is the result of joining or bonding of oxygen and iron molecules to form iron oxide the heat speeds up the process.
The flash rust, in my opinion shouldn't be a major concern if it is either wiped off of the surfaces or it is oiled. It will absorb the oil and help to protect the steel below it.
The catch here is that if it remains on the surface and it is not oiled it will draw moisture out of the air and cause more severe rusting to form. That is why I feel the best thing to do if you have flash rust is to wipe as much of it as you can off using a oiled patch.
Better yet, don't use hot water to clean your gun to minimize the amount of flash rust to begin with and then oil the surface of the metal as soon after cleaning as is possible.
Most if not all water has some air in it. 20 percent of this air is oxygen and the water helps the oxygen molecules come into intimate contact with the iron molecules in the steel.
In the case of "flash rust" which is the result of joining or bonding of oxygen and iron molecules to form iron oxide the heat speeds up the process.
The flash rust, in my opinion shouldn't be a major concern if it is either wiped off of the surfaces or it is oiled. It will absorb the oil and help to protect the steel below it.
The catch here is that if it remains on the surface and it is not oiled it will draw moisture out of the air and cause more severe rusting to form. That is why I feel the best thing to do if you have flash rust is to wipe as much of it as you can off using a oiled patch.
Better yet, don't use hot water to clean your gun to minimize the amount of flash rust to begin with and then oil the surface of the metal as soon after cleaning as is possible.
Short Start
Sorry I was out huntin. Just got in.
I too used to use hot water for the same reason others have mentioned. I stopped because of the brown rust that I was getting also. Does it damage the barrel. Heck I dono but I don't like rust in my bore even for a short period. I use tap water about room temp or a little warmer and some dish washing soap. You know maybe the temp you wash your hands in. I only use a flannel patch 2"x2" I cut from some stuff I get a wally world. No brush or fance solvents just water and a little soap. Now for the drying. I may use a little paper towel and run it down the barrel change it out once or twice and then another flannel patch. I take the patch after I run it up and down the barrel a couple of times and touch it to my upper lip. You can tell if there is any dampness still on the patch. If there is put another patch in there and keeping checking with your lip. When it comes out dry I take another patch soaked in wd and swab the bore. I may even put a squirt or two down the barrel and use the wd soaked patch to make sure the bore is compleatly coated. I also use the wd patch on the jag to force air out the nipple hole quickly to blow any moisture out and to put some wd in the channel. I don't use a dry patch until ready to load. The rifle is stored muzzle down. I check the bore with a bore light just to make me feel better. If it is the end of the season I clean the same way and put the thing away. If I don't shoot it for a year(I have a bunch of M/L's and don't shoot all of them all the time)the bore is still clean and bright ready to go.
I think it is important to remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't do exactly what I do are your wrong. Nope not at all. Take what everyone says and do what makes sense to you. I think most of us use a combination of what others do. The big thing is clean the bore as soon as possible after shooting. Do not be fooled buy products that say you don't have to clean the barrel because their stuff protects it. I don't believe in "seasoning" with stuff and you don't have to clean all hunting season. No sir clean your bore. Why do I "know" this? I believed their manure and lost a barrel. It rusted so bad I couldn't get a patch down it. I was lucky, they replaced the barrel.
Hope this helps but remember this is just what works for me. It's not rocket science. Just get the bore clean and coat it with oil.
Sorry I was out huntin. Just got in.
I too used to use hot water for the same reason others have mentioned. I stopped because of the brown rust that I was getting also. Does it damage the barrel. Heck I dono but I don't like rust in my bore even for a short period. I use tap water about room temp or a little warmer and some dish washing soap. You know maybe the temp you wash your hands in. I only use a flannel patch 2"x2" I cut from some stuff I get a wally world. No brush or fance solvents just water and a little soap. Now for the drying. I may use a little paper towel and run it down the barrel change it out once or twice and then another flannel patch. I take the patch after I run it up and down the barrel a couple of times and touch it to my upper lip. You can tell if there is any dampness still on the patch. If there is put another patch in there and keeping checking with your lip. When it comes out dry I take another patch soaked in wd and swab the bore. I may even put a squirt or two down the barrel and use the wd soaked patch to make sure the bore is compleatly coated. I also use the wd patch on the jag to force air out the nipple hole quickly to blow any moisture out and to put some wd in the channel. I don't use a dry patch until ready to load. The rifle is stored muzzle down. I check the bore with a bore light just to make me feel better. If it is the end of the season I clean the same way and put the thing away. If I don't shoot it for a year(I have a bunch of M/L's and don't shoot all of them all the time)the bore is still clean and bright ready to go.
I think it is important to remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't do exactly what I do are your wrong. Nope not at all. Take what everyone says and do what makes sense to you. I think most of us use a combination of what others do. The big thing is clean the bore as soon as possible after shooting. Do not be fooled buy products that say you don't have to clean the barrel because their stuff protects it. I don't believe in "seasoning" with stuff and you don't have to clean all hunting season. No sir clean your bore. Why do I "know" this? I believed their manure and lost a barrel. It rusted so bad I couldn't get a patch down it. I was lucky, they replaced the barrel.
Hope this helps but remember this is just what works for me. It's not rocket science. Just get the bore clean and coat it with oil.
thumbs about your original ? I work with my guns by shootin 2 shot groups first shot clean barrel second shot without wiping,, mark shots record group,3times,change charge repete keep doing this until tightest poss group is obtained,then you are ready to hunt. My 50cal homebrew pistol will put first and second shots into 1 ragged hole at 20yds. if I do my part.Its not that hard just takes time to do.
Yep makes perfect sense to me. You don't get a third shot often. I have had a few second shots though. You would think with all that noise and smoke they would figure it out. Well the idea of a second shot from a fouled barrel makes a lot of sense.
Next time to the range it will be interesting to see where the second one goes without cleaning.
That falls under the catagory of "why didn't I think of that"
Next time to the range it will be interesting to see where the second one goes without cleaning.
That falls under the catagory of "why didn't I think of that"
paulvallandigham
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The heated barrel causes moisture( water) in the barrel to evaporate so fast that oxidation occurs.( rust!) That is why we call if " Flash rust ". It happens so quickly it can't be stopped fast enough. Use tepid or even cold water when cleaning your barrel, and you will have time to dry it with dry cleaning patches, and then lube the barrel after it is dry.
A new formula is showing great promise in guns, and it consists of one part WD40, one part Mobile One Jet engine oil( LP2), and two parts beeswax. This makes both a preservative to prevent rusting, and a great patch lube. The revolver shooters are finding that if they use this mix to lube the mouth of the chambers after seating their RB in each chamber, that their groups are dropping to half the size they get using anything else.
I have not yet found this synthetic oil in a store, here, locally, but still have some places to check. Most of us have WD40 in a spray format, but need to buy it in a can. The mix goes on patches similar to Dutch Schoultz Dry Lube forumla, as the driers in WD 40 evaporate and leave behind an oil compound in the cloth patch, and help to spread evenly the wax and synthetic oil before evaporating.
This mixture was developed by the same man who found that Teflon made a good lube for ML rifle patches. This formula is the only combination of ingredients that do as well as a patch as does teflon products, according to his own research.
It might be worth giving it a try. I want to try some on some metal to see how long it keeps rust away. Then I will try it as a patch lube to see how well it shoots.
Paul
A new formula is showing great promise in guns, and it consists of one part WD40, one part Mobile One Jet engine oil( LP2), and two parts beeswax. This makes both a preservative to prevent rusting, and a great patch lube. The revolver shooters are finding that if they use this mix to lube the mouth of the chambers after seating their RB in each chamber, that their groups are dropping to half the size they get using anything else.
I have not yet found this synthetic oil in a store, here, locally, but still have some places to check. Most of us have WD40 in a spray format, but need to buy it in a can. The mix goes on patches similar to Dutch Schoultz Dry Lube forumla, as the driers in WD 40 evaporate and leave behind an oil compound in the cloth patch, and help to spread evenly the wax and synthetic oil before evaporating.
This mixture was developed by the same man who found that Teflon made a good lube for ML rifle patches. This formula is the only combination of ingredients that do as well as a patch as does teflon products, according to his own research.
It might be worth giving it a try. I want to try some on some metal to see how long it keeps rust away. Then I will try it as a patch lube to see how well it shoots.
Paul
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