thespeedybee
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When I get a weekend free I will get in touch with you. Thanks.
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First time Shooting Blackpowder
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paulvallandigham
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With most " set Triggers', you have a forward trigger that actually fires the gun. The rear trigger " sets " the trigger by taking up the majority of the trigger pull tension, reducing trigger pull from several lbs. to a couple of ounces.
There are " Single Set " triggers, that are " set " by pushing the trigger forward.
And there are older double " set triggers", where the forward trigger does the setting, and the rear trigger fires the gun.
There are " Single Set " triggers, that are " set " by pushing the trigger forward.
And there are older double " set triggers", where the forward trigger does the setting, and the rear trigger fires the gun.
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It might of been covered here by others, but most of us shoot or have shot modern cartridge guns too!thespeedybee said:
I think the best advise and the ONLY REAL ADVISE, is for you to contact an EXPERIENCED black powder shooter in your area through Gun Shops,Gun Clubs etc. and spend a day at the range with them.
Black powder shooting and particularly Flintlock muzzleloading rifles are a fun, but much different way of shooting....PERIOD!
Good Luck,
Rick
DougMPhoto
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Speedybee.
We would be glad to help you out.
I belong to Clairton Sportmen's Club on Rt 885 near the CCAC (West Mifflin) We have a Muzzleloading Club.
http://www.powderpatchandball.com/
Also, there is another - Forest Grove (near Coraopolis) http://www.eteamz.com/ForestGroveSportsmenAssociation/index.cfm?
Either of these clubs have members who would be more than happy to teach you and give you a place to shoot.
We have a Shoot the First Sunday of each month at Clairton...Forest Grove shoots the 3rd Sunday.
Contact me for more info.
Doug
We would be glad to help you out.
I belong to Clairton Sportmen's Club on Rt 885 near the CCAC (West Mifflin) We have a Muzzleloading Club.
http://www.powderpatchandball.com/
Also, there is another - Forest Grove (near Coraopolis) http://www.eteamz.com/ForestGroveSportsmenAssociation/index.cfm?
Either of these clubs have members who would be more than happy to teach you and give you a place to shoot.
We have a Shoot the First Sunday of each month at Clairton...Forest Grove shoots the 3rd Sunday.
Contact me for more info.
Doug
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thespeedybee said:
Sorry. This is what I get for jumping to a conclusion.
The very fact that you asked tells me that your rifle has a simple single trigger so please ignore my comments about setting and firing the trigger.
Many of the muzzleloading rifles that are available have "set triggers" which commonly have a forward trigger and a rear "trigger".
As was said by another poster up above the rear trigger isn't really a trigger at all. It just looks like one and pulling it compresses a heavy spring which is held in place by a small catch on the front trigger.
When the trigger is "set" a gentle touch on the front trigger releases the rear trigger which in turn hits the sear causing the hammer to fall.
Had your rifle possessed one of these set triggers you could "set" it and "fire" it repeatedly without damage if (and only if) the hammer was kept in the "fired" position.
thespeedybee
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Ok, question about the powder. I was able to find the rest fairly easily, but couldn't find Goex locally, at least not where I was. They had Triple 7, FFFg equivilant. Said it could be used and was easier to clean. Is that an ok powder to use or should I continue to hunt for Goex. The 25 lb quantities online were a little too much for me.
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777, pyrodex are synthetic black powder. they dont ignite well with flintlocks, that is u couldnt really prime with these and expect it to fire. real plack powder is what u need, like goex.
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the guy who was trying to sell that stuff was ether an inline shooter or he doesnt shoot BP at all. there is going to be some clean up, thats a givin. there always was, there always will be with bp.
paulvallandigham
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You can order as little as 4 or 5 lb.s from Graf & sons, and get some discount. It will cost you more than if you buy a case, because the Haz Mat fee of $20.00 applies to the shipment, and is not prorated for the pounds you buy. That is why its always cheaper to buy a full case- and go together with other shooters to buy it-- in order to justify the expense.
If you look at that 777 stuff, the bottle is NOT a full 16 oz. Rather, its about 12 oz. The price for the stuff is high- usually over $20.00 for the bottle, or can, and when you work out the comparison price for that stuff and black Powder, Black Powder becomes clearly cheaper to buy.
You have already been given the news that 777 ignites at a much higher temperature than Black Powder, and is Totally UNSUITABLE FOR USE IN FLINTLOCKS. The other bad news is that once you open the bottle of 777, it begins to deteriorate, losing its power. You have to shoot it up rather rapidly, or it doesn't deliver the same energy it did when you first opened the bottle. Black Powder lasts forever, if stored properly.
And, finally, you have been told, contrary to what those idiots selling the stuff routinely tell the unwary, that YES, you do have to clean the guns just like you have to clean guns shooting BP. There is no shortcut. If your gun is not cleaned, the residue left from 777 will corrode the barrel, even " stainless " steel. There are a lot of junk guns out there now, that are less than 5 years old, all due to clerks telling customers they don't have to clean those guns if they use a substitute for black powder.
The clerks get this from the manufacturers, or their bosses, who don't know any better, and don't care. They are making money selling guns. If someone has to buy a new gun every 3-5 years, they make more money. There are remote places in this world where you don't have any choice but to use substitute powder, if you have a percussion ignition gun. If its flint, you are out of luck. There are NO substitute powders that ignite properly when used in flintlocks. The flashpoint of these modern compounds is just too high to insure ignition.
You have been encouraged to find a local BP club, or at least another experienced BP shooter, to help you learn what you need to know to get that gun firing reliably. Experienced shooters also tend to know other shooters, or where to find clubs that shoot BP. Network. Then you will find sources of black powder at prices you can afford.
If you look at that 777 stuff, the bottle is NOT a full 16 oz. Rather, its about 12 oz. The price for the stuff is high- usually over $20.00 for the bottle, or can, and when you work out the comparison price for that stuff and black Powder, Black Powder becomes clearly cheaper to buy.
You have already been given the news that 777 ignites at a much higher temperature than Black Powder, and is Totally UNSUITABLE FOR USE IN FLINTLOCKS. The other bad news is that once you open the bottle of 777, it begins to deteriorate, losing its power. You have to shoot it up rather rapidly, or it doesn't deliver the same energy it did when you first opened the bottle. Black Powder lasts forever, if stored properly.
And, finally, you have been told, contrary to what those idiots selling the stuff routinely tell the unwary, that YES, you do have to clean the guns just like you have to clean guns shooting BP. There is no shortcut. If your gun is not cleaned, the residue left from 777 will corrode the barrel, even " stainless " steel. There are a lot of junk guns out there now, that are less than 5 years old, all due to clerks telling customers they don't have to clean those guns if they use a substitute for black powder.
The clerks get this from the manufacturers, or their bosses, who don't know any better, and don't care. They are making money selling guns. If someone has to buy a new gun every 3-5 years, they make more money. There are remote places in this world where you don't have any choice but to use substitute powder, if you have a percussion ignition gun. If its flint, you are out of luck. There are NO substitute powders that ignite properly when used in flintlocks. The flashpoint of these modern compounds is just too high to insure ignition.
You have been encouraged to find a local BP club, or at least another experienced BP shooter, to help you learn what you need to know to get that gun firing reliably. Experienced shooters also tend to know other shooters, or where to find clubs that shoot BP. Network. Then you will find sources of black powder at prices you can afford.
Fact is, any form of BP creates some form of caustic residue that has to be cleaned up...all the crap about modern cleaning is marketing hype...I've seen a number of posts on various forums over the years where somebody was whining because he took the hype too literally and when he dragged the rifle out a year after last using it, found a ruined barrel.
Its an example of that whole industry's mindset...to make a fast buck with little effort.
And the mindset of that market...get something easy & simple to use that requires no work.
Two segments of people made for each other. :grin:
Its an example of that whole industry's mindset...to make a fast buck with little effort.
And the mindset of that market...get something easy & simple to use that requires no work.
Two segments of people made for each other. :grin:
Although 777, Pyrodex and the other substitute black powders burn with a slightly begger "poof" when they are laying in the pan than smokeless powder would, they all burn very slowly outside of a gun barrel.
Said a different way, if you put a little pile of black powder in an ashtray and light it with a match it will go POOF in an instant large ball of fire.
If you do the same thing with Pyrodex or 777 it will go "WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH" with a sustained medium sized ball of fire.
If you do the same with smokeless powder it will go "burn-burn-burn-burn" without any major flare up.
The instant POOF is what the gun needs to develop a flame front that can rapidly pass thru the touch hole and set off the main powder charge.
Also as was mentioned, the little sparks from the flint need something that ignites very easily at fairly low temperatures. Black powder does this. Substitute powders do not.
That said, it is obvious that you will need real black powder to make your lock work.
If you have the black powder for the lock, if you buy 3Fg powder you will also have the powder for your main charge. 3Fg powder works very well in the pan.
I can well undersand why you wouldn't want to buy 5 pounds of powder for the shooting you plan to do so the first thing you should do is to call every gun store in your area and ask them if they carry real black powder.
You should also call your local shooting club(s) and ask them if anyone shows up there shooting a Flintlock. If anyone does, try to get their name(s) and give them a call. They may be able to tell you where you can buy black powder locally.
Good Luck.
Said a different way, if you put a little pile of black powder in an ashtray and light it with a match it will go POOF in an instant large ball of fire.
If you do the same thing with Pyrodex or 777 it will go "WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH" with a sustained medium sized ball of fire.
If you do the same with smokeless powder it will go "burn-burn-burn-burn" without any major flare up.
The instant POOF is what the gun needs to develop a flame front that can rapidly pass thru the touch hole and set off the main powder charge.
Also as was mentioned, the little sparks from the flint need something that ignites very easily at fairly low temperatures. Black powder does this. Substitute powders do not.
That said, it is obvious that you will need real black powder to make your lock work.
If you have the black powder for the lock, if you buy 3Fg powder you will also have the powder for your main charge. 3Fg powder works very well in the pan.
I can well undersand why you wouldn't want to buy 5 pounds of powder for the shooting you plan to do so the first thing you should do is to call every gun store in your area and ask them if they carry real black powder.
You should also call your local shooting club(s) and ask them if anyone shows up there shooting a Flintlock. If anyone does, try to get their name(s) and give them a call. They may be able to tell you where you can buy black powder locally.
Good Luck.
DougMPhoto
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PAmuzzleshooter said:
I'm sorry, my response must have gotten lost in the jumble on here.
The shoots on the First and Third Sundays are for everyone, even NON-members of the clubs. So if you want to learn about your rifle and how to shoot a flintlock, let me know. Also, I or another member may be willing to bring you onto the club grounds as a guest if you want to learn/shoot before then.
Learn your rifle before you buy things you cannot use. As said before, a lot of the stores know nothing about period correct flintlocks, they only know Inlines :cursing:.
And the companies calling THEM things muzzleloaders should be ashamed of themselves. :cursing:
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You have recieved an excellent crash course on ML
flintlocks, Old Sarge's offer will be the best thing you have going for you, take a look thru the past post around here and get you mind wrapped around the whole thing, and take your time, the two things that stand out the most as far as getting all twistedd up and bass ackward is to feed the gun modern conical bullets this causes a very serious indigestion syndrome in the belly of the gun that can be difficult to treat, second is the use of high tech modern peep sights or scopes, once again there is a reaction caused by adding something bad to something that is very good and wholesome that can set back the guns breakin period and actually cause serious accuracy issues if continued for any length of time, by staying with real BP and patched round balls or one of the very rare replicas of early bullets or peep sights ( the latter two really offer little over the primitive sights and PRB) one can enjoy a journey back in time and have a wonderfull experience by sharing the ins and outs why's and where's of ML shooting/hunting as out ancestors did, welcome to the world of traditional muzzleloading, whether target shooting, hunting, or just plinking while walking along a forest trail, enjoy the journey and welcome to the forum and read, listen, ask questions and learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff as you become addicted to the acrid smell of burnt black powder.
flintlocks, Old Sarge's offer will be the best thing you have going for you, take a look thru the past post around here and get you mind wrapped around the whole thing, and take your time, the two things that stand out the most as far as getting all twistedd up and bass ackward is to feed the gun modern conical bullets this causes a very serious indigestion syndrome in the belly of the gun that can be difficult to treat, second is the use of high tech modern peep sights or scopes, once again there is a reaction caused by adding something bad to something that is very good and wholesome that can set back the guns breakin period and actually cause serious accuracy issues if continued for any length of time, by staying with real BP and patched round balls or one of the very rare replicas of early bullets or peep sights ( the latter two really offer little over the primitive sights and PRB) one can enjoy a journey back in time and have a wonderfull experience by sharing the ins and outs why's and where's of ML shooting/hunting as out ancestors did, welcome to the world of traditional muzzleloading, whether target shooting, hunting, or just plinking while walking along a forest trail, enjoy the journey and welcome to the forum and read, listen, ask questions and learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff as you become addicted to the acrid smell of burnt black powder.
And just to be clear...4F granulation is actually made as "priming powder"...it is faster than larger granulations of powder like 3F or 2F.
That's one of the characteristics of black powder...the finer the granulation size of the kernels, the faster the burn rate...ie: 5F is faster than 4F is faster than 3F is faster than 2F and so on...not opinions, industry facts.
3F will work, however, whether everyone can tell the difference or not, it is indeed slower than 4F, as proven by controlled testing equipment and high speed photography...I think the links to the high speed videos are in the members section at the top of the forum or something.
So if you end up having to order a few cans of powder anyway, at a place that has a 5 can minimum or something, then it'll be a simple matter to specify one can of 4F priming powder, and 4 cans of 3F for the main powder charges, and you'll be all set.
Welcome to the great world of Flintlocks !
:thumbsup:
That's one of the characteristics of black powder...the finer the granulation size of the kernels, the faster the burn rate...ie: 5F is faster than 4F is faster than 3F is faster than 2F and so on...not opinions, industry facts.
3F will work, however, whether everyone can tell the difference or not, it is indeed slower than 4F, as proven by controlled testing equipment and high speed photography...I think the links to the high speed videos are in the members section at the top of the forum or something.
So if you end up having to order a few cans of powder anyway, at a place that has a 5 can minimum or something, then it'll be a simple matter to specify one can of 4F priming powder, and 4 cans of 3F for the main powder charges, and you'll be all set.
Welcome to the great world of Flintlocks !
:thumbsup:
Kentuckywindage
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Sounds like you got Powerbelt bullets.
Those shoot excellent in the lyman rifles with 1:48 twist!
more than likely they are in the 245 to 295gr range. Max out the powder limit at 80gr-90gr black powder 2f.
The heavier ones shoot even better
Those shoot excellent in the lyman rifles with 1:48 twist!
more than likely they are in the 245 to 295gr range. Max out the powder limit at 80gr-90gr black powder 2f.
The heavier ones shoot even better
bajabuc
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I have been known to take some 3f and put it in my wifes motar and pestal and make fine powder out of it. It's a marble mortar and pestal. It grinds it up pretty fine and ignites even faster than 4f. I'm not recommending you do it. I'm just telling you I have.
Then again I also made my own BP when I lived in Wyoming. Doesn't work as well as Dupont but it does go bang and you never can tell when the knowing how becomes the necessity. I happened to mention that I have made my own guns from scratch to a local cop. He said, "I hate guys like you."
"How come?" I asked. "One shot and you've got my gun." "Well," I said. "You better hope we citizens get to keep our guns, because when only the police have guns, then it's a police state and I wouldn't like that very much."
Then again I also made my own BP when I lived in Wyoming. Doesn't work as well as Dupont but it does go bang and you never can tell when the knowing how becomes the necessity. I happened to mention that I have made my own guns from scratch to a local cop. He said, "I hate guys like you."
"How come?" I asked. "One shot and you've got my gun." "Well," I said. "You better hope we citizens get to keep our guns, because when only the police have guns, then it's a police state and I wouldn't like that very much."
paulvallandigham
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Hairy, I am sure that is not a response that particular officer wanted to hear. But, its one they need to hear before they get all full of themselve.
I like to tell them its the gun-owning private citizen that is their Real BACKUP if they get into a shooting with the bad guys. Chances are that other officers won't have a better response time in answering his call for " officer needs assistance", " Shots-fire", than they are in responding to those kind of calls from us civilians. :hmm:
The best suporters of police today are the citizens who have guns legally, too. The citizens with CC permits are particularly likely to support the police and offer aid and assistance to them. Who in their right mind would want to alienate their best supporters?
I like to tell them its the gun-owning private citizen that is their Real BACKUP if they get into a shooting with the bad guys. Chances are that other officers won't have a better response time in answering his call for " officer needs assistance", " Shots-fire", than they are in responding to those kind of calls from us civilians. :hmm:
The best suporters of police today are the citizens who have guns legally, too. The citizens with CC permits are particularly likely to support the police and offer aid and assistance to them. Who in their right mind would want to alienate their best supporters?
