Fish and cross symbol on old flintlock rlfle

[sirdutch]

Hello everyone,

An old friend of mine is selling what he describes an an old Indian Flintlock, called as such because it is decorated with a lot of what we would call tacks, all very carefully and symmetrically done. It is absolutely beautiful with a fine stock and the metal is finished in what he calls a rust blue. It's caliber is approximately .45 caliber by measurement. He believes it was made by an American of German extraction in the mid nineteenth century but who knows for sure. It has no proof marks that I can see so it is most likely not a military arm. It has double triggers (single barrel, probably a set trigger)and has an inscription of B. Foote. I also is engraved with a Christian fish symbol with a cross inside of it. Any ideas on it's origin or the meaning of the symol of the cross and fish? I have been told by one oldtimer that the fish is for good luck in the hunt.

Thanks for any help out there.

P.S Is it worth the $900 he is asking for it if it is indeed an antique? He is an old friend so I don't doubt his sincerity. He is an expert with Colts and Winchesters and other early west firearms and is my go to man on these firearms.

God Bless!

 

[Amikee]

I'm no expert, but guys here including myself love pictures. And they will tell you that first I'm sure.
And it's hard to say how much it's worth without even seeing it. Get some nice pictures of stock, lock, barrel, perhaps bore, drop the light inside the bore or take a look inside to check for rust and such, run dry patch down to check for obstructions.... That's how much I learned here. But for the pricing.....pictures pictures pictures!!!!!!!!!

 

[DennisPollywog]

hotoSmile:
Shreck

 

[gearheart]

The fish symbol is an ancient christian sign. Nothing to do with luck. The Greek word for fish is IXTHUS Actually 5 letters because th, theta is one letter in Greek. The letters stand for Jesus Christ God's Son Savior. Early on it was not popular to be a Christian and signs were invented so folks could recognize without betraying each other. :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Have you even seen the gun? Your comment the double trigger might be sett indicate to me you have not seen it.
What makes a gun an "Indian" gun? What makes you thinks this one was an "Indian" gun?
The Christian symbols on it indicate that it was owned, at least at one time, by a white man.
Pics and more info are needed to help you.

 

[ohio ramrod]

The native americans where known to be very hard on guns. It is unlikely that an origional "Indian gun" would be in very good condition. But a gun intended to be traded to an Indian and kept could be an origional in good condition. If it is an origional "old gun" it's value would depend solely on condition. :idunno:

 

[sirdutch]

Wow! Ease up fella.(Rifleman1776) Of course I've seen the gun. What kind of question is that? My friend is re-cooperating from hip replacement surgery for a second time and I don't want to bother him with the flintlock at this time. Obviously, pics are a must and I shouldn't have raised the issue of value without including pictures. My question was originally directed towards the fish symbol and cross. As far as condition is concerned, the post by Ohio Ramrod is a thoughtful one and I raised that with my friend when I first had the opportunity to hold it. The Indians didn't make these guns but traded for them. One could get a fortune in furs for one. The Indians were generally hard on them for sure but the key word is "generally". Some examples were well taken care of and passed down, particularly by Indian leaders that received them as gifts. I've only seen it trice in all the years I've known him and he only recently offered it to me. It has been in his personal collection for 30 years. If it is antique or a wonderful authentic replica I'll leave for a later post with photos. I threw the inscription and the name Foote out there in the unlikely event that someone has heard or seen a flintlock so marked. Hopefully my friend is well enough in the next couple of weeks for me to ask him to bring it out for me to photograph. I would love to share the photos for all my brothers in arms on this site which continues to intrigue me. Thanks to Gerard Dueck, Flaydermaus, Amakee and anyone else who may post a comment.

God Bless

 

[S.Kenton]

when you get a chance to look at the rifle once again.. look VERY closely at the stock, particularly where the wood meets up with the metal..check for shrinkage. Old wood shrinks. Theres alot of copies and fakes out there..sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. I know ya were told this before.. but GOOD pics will tell alot.

 

[sirdutch]

Thank you S. Kenton. I will do that. I will get back to all of you with pics in a couple of weeks.Thanks again for the great suggestion. I really wish I had my hands on this muzzle loader right now but I will have to wait for Henry to get better first.

P.S. I would appreciate prayers for him to get well soon from you guys of faith out there.

God Bless

 

[dbiggers]

Hope your friend gets well soon and we can see those pictures then!!

 

[mazo kid]

.....has an inscription of B. Foote. also is engraved with a Christian fish symbol with a cross inside of it. Any ideas on it's origin or the meaning of the symol of the cross and fish? I have been told by one oldtimer that the fish is for good luck in the hunt.
Thanks for any help out there.
P.S Is it worth the $900 he is asking for it if it is indeed an antique? He is an old friend so I don't doubt his sincerity. He is an expert with Colts and Winchesters and other early west firearms and is my go to man on these firearms.
God Bless!

Meindert, as someone said, the fish is a very early Christian symbol, I don't know if an Indian would have put that on a rifle. Tacks, yeah. Maybe the Indian ownership was later. Is "B Foote" engraved on the lock or the barrel? I will step up and say (without benefit of pictures) that if the rifle is in good condition then it should be worth the asking price. Good luck.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wow! Ease up fella.(Rifleman1776) Of course I've seen the gun. What kind of question is that? My friend is re-cooperating from hip replacement surgery for a second time and I don't want to bother him with the flintlock at this time. Obviously, pics are a must and I shouldn't have raised the issue of value without including pictures. My question was originally directed towards the fish symbol and cross. As far as condition is concerned, the post by Ohio Ramrod is a thoughtful one and I raised that with my friend when I first had the opportunity to hold it. The Indians didn't make these guns but traded for them. One could get a fortune in furs for one. The Indians were generally hard on them for sure but the key word is "generally". Some examples were well taken care of and passed down, particularly by Indian leaders that received them as gifts. I've only seen it trice in all the years I've known him and he only recently offered it to me. It has been in his personal collection for 30 years. If it is antique or a wonderful authentic replica I'll leave for a later post with photos. I threw the inscription and the name Foote out there in the unlikely event that someone has heard or seen a flintlock so marked. Hopefully my friend is well enough in the next couple of weeks for me to ask him to bring it out for me to photograph. I would love to share the photos for all my brothers in arms on this site which continues to intrigue me. Thanks to Gerard Dueck, Flaydermaus, Amakee and anyone else who may post a comment.

God Bless

It has double triggers (single barrel, probably a set trigger)

Because you said "probably". If you have seen the gun it would have only taken a couple seconds to determine if they are sett triggers or something else.

 

[Geraldo]

The fish symbol is an ancient christian sign. Nothing to do with luck. The Greek word for fish is IXTHUS Actually 5 letters because th, theta is one letter in Greek. The letters stand for Jesus Christ God's Son Savior. Early on it was not popular to be a Christian and signs were invented so folks could recognize without betraying each other. :thumbsup:

The symbol was used during various persecutions. One story I heard is that when two people who did not know each other met, one person might draw half of the ixthus in the dirt with their staff or shoe, if the second person finished it they knew that they were both Christians.

 

[sirdutch]

Hello Mazo Kid!

It is on top of the barrel where the receiver would be. I should have waited to start this thread when I had pictures. For that I apologize to all. Bear with me and I'll post some when I can. Thanks for your response.

 

[Dphar]

Hello everyone,

An old friend of mine is selling what he describes an an old Indian Flintlock, called as such because it is decorated with a lot of what we would call tacks, all very carefully and symmetrically done. It is absolutely beautiful with a fine stock and the metal is finished in what he calls a rust blue. It's caliber is approximately .45 caliber by measurement. He believes it was made by an American of German extraction in the mid nineteenth century but who knows for sure. It has no proof marks that I can see so it is most likely not a military arm. It has double triggers (single barrel, probably a set trigger)and has an inscription of B. Foote. I also is engraved with a Christian fish symbol with a cross inside of it. Any ideas on it's origin or the meaning of the symol of the cross and fish? I have been told by one oldtimer that the fish is for good luck in the hunt.

Thanks for any help out there.

P.S Is it worth the $900 he is asking for it if it is indeed an antique? He is an old friend so I don't doubt his sincerity. He is an expert with Colts and Winchesters and other early west firearms and is my go to man on these firearms.

God Bless!

If its rust blued its almost surely a fake.
Temper blue yes, charcoal blue yes, rust blue is a red flag.
But a GOOD rifle is worth 900 anyway if the bore is good. If its been faked to the point of destroying the bore its not worth much.
Pull the lock and see if it has cast springs/parts.
Pictures are worth 10000 words in this case.

Dan

 

[sirdutch]

OK Sir.

I saw the gun three times and held the gun three times over the years. At the time, I wasn't offered the rifle at that time so I didn't work the action or look at it as a potential investment. I treated it as an antique rifle. I was careful and respectful when handling what I felt was a high end item. If it isn't an antique then my buddy has been fooled too.I was just admiring an old friends rifle. I resent that you insist that I never saw the rifle and am puzzled as to why you keep insisting that I've never seen the rifle. The one thing I am sure of at this point is that your mistaken!

 

[sirdutch]

Thanks Dan. I will get photos up in a couple of weeks when my friend Henry is up to getting the flintlock out.

God bless

 

[sirdutch]

Thanks for the edit. You know who you are. It will not happen again.

God Bless