flash in the pan 1 out of 3 times

[Larry Pletcher]

Since fake BP is the problem, you probably don't need to enlarge your vent hole too much. I'd not go bigger than I had to. With Swiss or Goex real black powder, you should hit a reliable size with one of the following drill bits:

1/16" 0.0625
52 0.064 xxxxx
51 0.067 xxxxx
50 0.070
49 0.073
48 0.076
5/64" 0.078 (too big IMHO)

Either a 52 or 51 should do the trick. If you have to go as big as 5/64, there may another problem. Many builders swear by 1/16". I personally like a #52 with a very slight exterior cone - perhaps spin a counter sink by hand to get this.

Since your mileage may vary, sneaking up on the drill bit size might help. Any good hardware will have them.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[paulvallandigham]

I will join the chorus: USE REAL BLACK POWDER in any flintlock- not substitutes! Goex Pioneer, is a substitute powder, not real black powder. It was made to be used in " black Powder" Cartridge Cowboy Action Shooting matches, because its supposedly "cleaner" and doesn't have sulfur in it. It IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED IN FLINTLOCKS!

That is your basic problem.

Next, do measure the diameter of the vent hole. you may need to take the vent to a hardware store and use the drill bits there to figure out how small the size of the hole is.

Generally, opening the vent up to at least 1/16" will improve ignition. BUT-- and this is a huge BUT-- you do need to remember to use a vent pick to poke a hole in the main charge through the vent, so that the heat from the burning priming charge reaches into the barrel and ignites more than the one granule that is next to the vent hole if you don't open up that hole.

With the .54, some barrels will shoot better groups with FFFg powder, and others with FFg powder. My references is to Goex powders-- not Swiss. The Swiss powder is numbered differently, with Swiss 2 being similar to our Goex 3Fg, and Swiss 1 1/2 being similar to our Goex 2Fg powder.

The only way you can find out which powder shoot more consistently small groups for you out a particular gun is to test both powders. Remember that 3Fg powder burns about 10% faster than does 2Fg powder, so adjust your powder charge accordingly to keep the same Point of Impact on the target.

For hunting loads, most shooters use a load of from 75 to 100 grains of either FFg or FFFg powder. I think more people here use either 80 grains of FFFg and 90 grains of FFg than any other load for those two powders, with their .54s.

I recommend that you use an OP Wad( over powder wad) to act as a firewall between the powder charge, and the Patched Round Ball. It also seals the gases behind the wad, protecting the patch and the soft lead ball from Gas Blow-by. The wad helps the powder burn more completely, so that you get more consistent velocities from shot to shot. That also contributes much to small groups on your target. The rest is up to you as a shooter. :thumbsup:

 

[Zoar]

Since you state you do not like "extra work" (Gee, who does, hahaha!) I would try the REAL BLACK before doing anything. I think you may find the gun works fine with real black and no machining needed!

 

[Emet Huntsman]

Ditto Zoar's post. Keep in mind that the larger the vent hole, the more pressure coming out that way than pushing the ball out of the bore. Before drilling anything I would see how the gun likes real black powder with the existing vent. :thumbsup:

 

[RJR]

I haven't seen anybody mention coning the inside of the vent. Made a world of difference on my flinters.

Rick

 

[Herb]

You got a lot of good advice here, but I can give you more. First, enlarge that flash hole to about .070". Next, real black powder in the pan, 2F, 3F, 4F, they all work. If you want to use a synthetic powder as the main charge, fill your measure, tap it down about five grains and top it off with real black powder. It will then work normally, if you want to use it, but straight black powder is the standard. You already got most of this info. Now to your target- Don't shoot at a deer's neck! See the Traditional Muzzleloading Hunting forum here, post "Neck Shooters", and my post of 10/23/08.

 

[robertdale]

1/16" is too big!!! .060-.075 is big enough. 1/16th will lose to much powder when you load and cause uneven pressure.
just my 2 bits worth

 

[bioprof]

1/16" is too big!!! .060-.075 is big enough. 1/16th will lose to much powder when you load and cause uneven pressure.
just my 2 bits worth

1/16" is 0.062, which is right in the lower part of the range that you mentioned.

 

[rabjr]

I beg to differ, my guns are drilled out to 1/16th and go off everytime and are more accuarate than I can shoot them.

 

[roundball]

I beg to differ, my guns are drilled out to 1/16th and go off everytime and are more accuarate than I can shoot them.

Agree...and in my rifles, all the vent liners are heavily coned inside & out, with .070" vents and ignition immediately brings the word instantaneous to mind

 

[akjim]

Now to your target- Don't shoot at a deer's neck! See the Traditional Muzzleloading Hunting forum here, post "Neck Shooters", and my post of 10/23/08.

Morning Boys,,,,,got a chuckle out of your post Herb,,,, :v haven't read the neck shooting post but rest assured all I was trying to do was figure out the initial windage and elevation and see if I had a rifle that would group off hand. Those shots were the first 10 or so I had ever fired with the rifle. I'm not used to the weight yet but she's pretty balanced over the 32 inches.. On a bench I was got a nice 5 round 3 inch group at 75 yards and I hope the 3 inches will get tighter once I get consistant ignition and a chance to practise. The rifle was grouping about 6 inches low and 5 oclock so those neck shots were my poor attempt to visual adjust and hit the target standing off hand. I havent moved the front blade over to move the group as I don't know yet if it's the rifle or me, the rear sight is fixed without elevation adjustment so it's all still in flux. Got a lot of practise and powder weight experiments to do before I hunt.
In 30 years I've never taken anything but lung and heart shots, even with an 06 using a 3 x 9 power scope. I know there are a lot who are, but I've always felt I'm personally not a good enough shot to hit something like a 2 inch diameter spine that may be moving. I've seen some fine shots but I aint one of them once the adrealine is pumping....Shot a nice bull moose last year with an antique Russian Nagant, the first round vaporized the left lung, the next two went to china and goodness knows where.... takes about 3 to 5 seconds for the shakes to take over.....but they last until I'm elbow deep in gut pile...... :grin: :surrender: :rotf:
Thanks again for all the info guys,,I've printed this post out for future reference,,your insight is great and I hope to get back to ya'll with a really nice report. Off to replace all the substitute stuff with Goex this morning. I'll try that first and then move on from there.
Again Thanks
Jim

 

[J.D.]

Since fake BP is the problem, you probably don't need to enlarge your vent hole too much. I'd not go bigger than I had to. With Swiss or Goex real black powder, you should hit a reliable size with one of the following drill bits:

1/16" 0.0625
52 0.064 xxxxx
51 0.067 xxxxx
50 0.070
49 0.073
48 0.076
5/64" 0.078 (too big IMHO)

Either a 52 or 51 should do the trick. If you have to go as big as 5/64, there may another problem. Many builders swear by 1/16". I personally like a #52 with a very slight exterior cone - perhaps spin a counter sink by hand to get this.

Since your mileage may vary, sneaking up on the drill bit size might help. Any good hardware will have them.

Regards,
Pletch

I have to agree with Pletch. He has done the reasearch, so I suggest beginning with a 1/16" drill, then enlarge the TH incrementally beginning with # 52 drill.

Countersinking/coning the exterior of the TH, to the bottom of the screw slot, will help improve ignition too.

IMHO, anything over .070 is too large for a rifle, though the occasional large bored rifle or smoothbore can benefit from a larger TH.

Good luck,
J.D.

 

[paulvallandigham]

ON the advice of my gunbuilder, I eventually had to open the vent on my rifle to 5/64", or .078125". This diameter works find in my flintlock using FFg powder. If I use FFFg, some of the granules will be blown out the vent hole into the pan, or on the ground, if I don't close the frizzen when loading.

That was the only way I could eliminate my ignition problems. No misfires since I opened that vent.

Now, to be very clear, I began with 1/16" and only opened the vent hole up one drill size at a time, over a couple of months of shooting, and only after the gun misfired a couple of times with the smaller vent hole size. I worked up through the drill sizes, one at a time, and constantly checked my loading procedure to determine if I had changed something I was doing to cause the misfires. Only when I was satisfied that my loading and priming techniques were sound, but the misfires were still occurring, and then only after discussing it with my gun builder/gunsmith, did I go the next drill size.

Frankly, as J.D. advises, we both had hoped, and expected the problems would go away at 1/16". My gunsmith is the one who encouraged me to enlarge the vent hole, rather than replace the vent liner all together, telling me that he also had worked on guns that required larger vents to fire reliably. He also assured me that the vent holes on some of the original guns, particular military muskets and rifles were a lot larger than 5/64" .

:thumbsup:

 

[Zoar]

I hear ya guys but too big a vent hole means all the 2F pours INTO the pan and there is NO room for pan powder.

The guy bad ignition AND he was using the synthetic fake powder,,, In a FLINTLOCK!!!! If that is not 100% of his problem I will eat my hat......


hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[akjim]

I hear ya guys but too big a vent hole means all the 2F pours INTO the pan and there is NO room for pan powder.

The guy bad ignition AND he was using the synthetic fake powder,,, In a FLINTLOCK!!!! If that is not 100% of his problem I will eat my hat......
hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Hang on to your hat my friend. :bow: I am the proud new owner of 3 pounds of FFFG Goex and a couple packs of over the powder wads. Not really the over powder cards I'm used to but they say they will increase accuracy and can be used as over powder under patched ball. Now if we can get rid of the rain for a day or so we'll see.
Thanks again guys, really appreciated. :thumbsup:

 

[Zoar]

I have to tell you when I first started in Muzzle Loaders I started with the Pyrodex / fake stuff and I was having the same problem of pan flash and no BOOM or having no consistent pan flash... Someone said TRY the Real Black. You will LIke it... So I did: That day I started shooting real Black Powder was a day I was so giddy I felt like I was nine years old and playing with fire!!!

I think you will LIKE real Black Powder.

 

[J.D.]

I hear ya guys but too big a vent hole means all the 2F pours INTO the pan and there is NO room for pan powder.

Pan powder? IMHO, any powder in the pan is "pan powder". If the pan is full, then there is no need to add more. :v :wink:

 

[Zoar]

My pan powder choice is 3F or 4F. Most guys I know don't recommend 2F for pan powder. And I have noticed on one of my Muzzle Loaders that DOES have too big of a vent hole, when the muzzle powder which is coarse falls and fills the pan, I do not have as consistent lighting of the "pan powder" from the striking of the flint. Plus the powder that I carefully measured to put in as a load for consistent accuracy is obviously LESS than what I measured because of all that powder that exited the hole and filled the pan up. This "too-big-of-a-vent-hole" problem did teach me to always close the frizzen BEFORE I pour powder down the muzzle. If I did NOT I would do more than just fill the pan, I'd lose alot of load powder onto the ground. Talk about a undesirable situation!! So too BIG of a vent hole can be a condition to avoid, and I would hate to see you create that problem by taking out drill bits or honers and making your vent hole bigger BEFORE you first try REAL BLACK POWDER. ...I can't wait to hear how you like the Black! Enjoy!

 

[J.D.]

My pan powder choice is 3F or 4F. Most guys I know don't recommend 2F for pan powder. And I have noticed on one of my Muzzle Loaders that DOES have too big of a vent hole, when the muzzle powder which is coarse falls and fills the pan, I do not have as consistent lighting of the "pan powder" from the striking of the flint. Plus the powder that I carefully measured to put in as a load for consistent accuracy is obviously LESS than what I measured because of all that powder that exited the hole and filled the pan up. This "too-big-of-a-vent-hole" problem did teach me to always close the frizzen BEFORE I pour powder down the muzzle. If I did NOT I would do more than just fill the pan, I'd lose alot of load powder onto the ground. Talk about a undesirable situation!! So too BIG of a vent hole can be a condition to avoid, and I would hate to see you create that problem by taking out drill bits or honers and making your vent hole bigger BEFORE you first try REAL BLACK POWDER. ...I can't wait to hear how you like the Black! Enjoy!

Sounds like a bushing is in order.

I had the same problem with a Ped bess and had to insert a vent pick into the vent. The pick was held in place by the frizzen closed on the pan.

A frizzen stall is placed on the frizzen to prevent accidental discharge, BTW.

J.D.

 

[Russianblood]

Most of my flinters have a 5/64" touch hole and my Pedersoli Bess has a 3/32". None of them "self prime" and all go boom with the first pull of the trigger. :thumbsup: