Flash pan touch hole question

[TreeMan]

I converted one of my percussion rifles to flint a few months ago. The touch hole didn’t exactly line up with the pan on the L&R lock front to back so I widened the pan. The gun is very reliable with ignition but I feel it’s still too slow compared to other flint guns I have. I think the problem is my touch hole is too high above the pan. Any suggestions on a way to build up the bottom of the pan? I’m gonna try some jb weld to see if it will help and I know that is a temp fix. If it does help what is a permanent fix? Here is a pic of it. I just finished doing some shooting so yes I know it’s dirty. Is there any other type of epoxy or JB weld type Of material that would not burn away?

 

[Tom Compton]

What powder? Real BP has a lower ignition temperature.

Does your gun have an anti chamber? The powder may be bridging before filling the flash channel. A finer granulation could clear the problem.

Tapping the butt plate on the ground or slapping the side of the gun before seating a projectile will tell you. Doing either of these is a patch. If this seems to be the issue, post here as it can be fixed.

I open my touch holes to 1/16” even before firing. Some may require a larger flash hole. BUT do this in small steps. Use number drills. Harbor Freight sells an inexpensive set.

 

[TreeMan]

What powder? Real BP has a lower ignition temperature.

Does your gun have an anti chamber? The powder may be bridging before filling the flash channel. A finer granulation could clear the problem.

Tapping the butt plate on the ground or slapping the side of the gun before seating a projectile will tell you. Doing either of these is a patch. If this seems to be the issue, post here as it can be fixed.

I open my touch holes to 1/16” even before firing. Some may require a larger flash hole. BUT do this in small steps. Use number drills. Harbor Freight sells an inexpensive set.

I use 3F Goex in the barrel and 4f Goex in the pan. The gun is an old percussion build from Pecatonica river with a green mountain barrel that doesn’t have a patent breech. The touch hole goes strait into the barrel at the Breech. The rifle shoots great from the bench but the delay really throws me off off handed. I have a traditions flintlock and a pedersoli Mortimer shotgun and they both have way faster ignition than this rifle. The touch hole of this gun sits higher than both of those too. I’ve tried less prime, more prime, away from hole and against the hole. This ox yoke rmc liner is the fastest one I’ve tried in it and it is 1/16. I’m thinking the hole is too high.

 

[Erwan]

It's true, your hole is clearly too high and when the priming powder produces its flash it must be deflected enough to explain this slight delay.
I guess your flash hole doesn't come apart and you don't have an old one in a drawer ...
If you have an old touch hole and it is removable you could try to pierce the old obliquely upwards after having filled it with a weld like TIG. It is a solution that has already been used in the past, it does not make a miracle but often arranges the holes too high.
In the past, long, long time ago,the holes were drilled at the correct height, but in addition the drilling was oriented obliquely upwards.
Not sure that you will win a lot but you will necessarily gain a little on the speed of ignition since the flash will be less deflected or not at all...
Personally I would try this experience before making a more delicate and irreversible change ...

 

[ol vern]

I use 3F Goex in the barrel and 4f Goex in the pan. The gun is an old percussion build from Pecatonica river with a green mountain barrel that doesn’t have a patent breech. The touch hole goes strait into the barrel at the Breech. The rifle shoots great from the bench but the delay really throws me off off handed. I have a traditions flintlock and a pedersoli Mortimer shotgun and they both have way faster ignition than this rifle. The touch hole of this gun sits higher than both of those too. I’ve tried less prime, more prime, away from hole and against the hole. This ox yoke rmc liner is the fastest one I’ve tried in it and it is 1/16. I’m thinking the hole is too high.

try opening the touch hole to 5/32 you could even go as high as 7/32 . Touch hole liners are cheep and you can always
replace it with another one if that don't work

 

[Buckskinn]

Doesn't look all that high to me, are you sure it's not an issue with your lock?

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think ol vern means 5/64". That is the largest touch hole I would intend to use although my touch hole in the Long Land Pattern is pretty close to 3/32".

I wouldn't use any form of epoxy in the touch hole. The heat will burn it away pretty quickly. All you could do is as Erwan suggests and plug the touch hole with a MIG weld.

Before I would do that, I would get a stainless steel bolt with the thread pitch of your touch hole. And a nut that I would slit in the side to hold the threaded bolt while it is clamped in position to do some work. Cut the bolt so you have about 3/8" of the bolt to cut a slot for a screw driver. Install the bolt in the touch hole and mark the spot where the touch hole would be in the sunset position. You want a centering countersink drill to start the touch hole such as these from Harbor Freight, https://www.harborfreight.com/center-drill-countersink-set-5-pc-60381.html?_br_psugg_q=center+drill. Then drill the 1/16" touch hole.
From the inside center start an internal cone and use a drill to create an internal cone about 1/2 the thickness of the barrel deep. Use high temperature anti seize lubricant and install the bolt section with the touch hole in the sunset position. File off the excess bolt and you should be ready to fire the gun. If this doesn't work, an easy out can remove the section of bolt easily.

You could also get an Allen head screw to insert in the touch hole and drill the touch hole in the sunset position. I just prefer an internal cone, but the Allen head screw touch hole can work too.

 

[denster]

The touch hole is just about right as regards height and is coned externally which should direct the flash. I would first check for a good shower of sparks, followed by a 5/64 touch hole followed by extra prime.

 

[sawyer04]

The touch hole is just about right as regards height and is coned externally which should direct the flash. I would first check for a good shower of sparks, followed by a 5/64 touch hole followed by extra prime.

I don't see why the touch hole would be a problem, I don't think it looks too high in the picture. I have had more problems with touch too low. I agree about the spark. Said earlier, I believe I would relief the hole next size up.

 

[rafterob]

I too first thought the touch hole looked fine. But the more I looked the higher it got. I think Grenadier's solution sounds like the right approach.

 

[M. De Land]

I think ol vern means 5/64". That is the largest touch hole I would intend to use although my touch hole in the Long Land Pattern is pretty close to 3/32".

I wouldn't use any form of epoxy in the touch hole. The heat will burn it away pretty quickly. All you could do is as Erwan suggests and plug the touch hole with a MIG weld.

Before I would do that, I would get a stainless steel bolt with the thread pitch of your touch hole. And a nut that I would slit in the side to hold the threaded bolt while it is clamped in position to do some work. Cut the bolt so you have about 3/8" of the bolt to cut a slot for a screw driver. Install the bolt in the touch hole and mark the spot where the touch hole would be in the sunset position. You want a centering countersink drill to start the touch hole such as these from Harbor Freight, https://www.harborfreight.com/center-drill-countersink-set-5-pc-60381.html?_br_psugg_q=center+drill. Then drill the 1/16" touch hole.
From the inside center start an internal cone and use a drill to create an internal cone about 1/2 the thickness of the barrel deep. Use high temperature anti seize lubricant and install the bolt section with the touch hole in the sunset position. File off the excess bolt and you should be ready to fire the gun. If this doesn't work, an easy out can remove the section of bolt easily.

You could also get an Allen head screw to insert in the touch hole and drill the touch hole in the sunset position. I just prefer an internal cone, but the Allen head screw touch hole can work too.

Do you really mean weld up a touch hole in the barrel wall or do you mean weld up the pan bottom to make it shallower. Welding on any barrel other than the muzzle in a liner situation is a no-no,especially in the breech area. Yeah I know about forge welded barrels but that does not produce the same strength dynamic as does a TIG or Mig weld which usually creates a brittle spot surrounded by more malleable steel. I've heard these hard spots from barrel welds referred to as heat risers.

 

[Captjoel]

Is the touch hole still visible after you close the pan? If it is, then the hole is too high. If not and the closed pan covers it from view (and weather), I would replace the liner with a White Lightning inner coned one. I have replaced all the vents on rifles I have owned that had outside cones and the ignition improved greatly!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Do you really mean weld up a touch hole in the barrel wall or do you mean weld up the pan bottom to make it shallower. Welding on any barrel other than the muzzle in a liner situation is a no-no,especially in the breech area. Yeah I know about forge welded barrels but that does not produce the same strength dynamic as does a TIG or Mig weld which usually creates a brittle spot surrounded by more malleable steel. I've heard these hard spots from barrel welds referred to as heat risers.

I was thinking of welding to close up the touch hole in the liner and redrill. It would be better to remove the existing touch hole liner. Replace the touch hole liner with a threaded plug and drill and tap for a new touch hole liner at the proper position. Or you could drill a new touch hole in the plug angled up slightly and drill from the inside to make an internal cone leaving a wall of at least 3/32" between the end of the internal cone and the outside of the barrel.

While a White Lightening Liner is a good choice for a new build it is not necessarily the best choice for the OP. In the case of the OP, It requires drilling a larger hole in the barrel to be tapped and it will be difficult to drill a hole to move the center of the touch hole liner down and retain integrity in the threads.

 

[TreeMan]

I was thinking of welding to close up the touch hole in the liner and redrill. It would be better to remove the existing touch hole liner. Replace the touch hole liner with a threaded plug and drill and tap for a new touch hole liner at the proper position. Or you could drill a new touch hole in the plug angled up slightly and drill from the inside to make an internal cone leaving a wall of at least 3/32" between the end of the internal cone and the outside of the barrel.

While a White Lightening Liner is a good choice for a new build it is not necessarily the best choice for the OP. In the case of the OP, It requires drilling a larger hole in the barrel to be tapped and it will be difficult to drill a hole to move the center of the touch hole liner down and retain integrity in the threads.

When I originally posted I meant testing some JB weld to raise the pan higher not in the touch hole. I drilled the hole to 5/64 today and will give it a test when the weather clears up this weekend. The rifle always goes off when I pull the trigger. I very seldom just have a flash in the pan and if I do if I poke the hole it’ll fire the next shot. I’ve shot it a LOT since converting it to flint. I have a pedersoli Mortimer I just bought that is lightening fast making this Guns delay more noticeable. I may need to polish this L&R lock up a little too since it’s new and not broken in good. When I close the frizzen the touch hole is not covered up to answer another posters question also. I’m thinking the bigger drilled hole may do the trick to fix it.

 

[denster]

One other suggestion is lock time. The Mortimer lock due to it's geometry is very fast. You can get a pretty good idea by watching closely and sparking the Mortimer and mentally gauging the time from trigger release to sparks hitting the pan the comparing with the L&R.

 

[TreeMan]

One other suggestion is lock time. The Mortimer lock due to it's geometry is very fast. You can get a pretty good idea by watching closely and sparking the Mortimer and mentally gauging the time from trigger release to sparks hitting the pan the comparing with the L&R.

I think you’re Absolutely right. I can actually hear the release of the cock and it striking the frizzen on the L&R before it ever sends a spark to the pan. I’m convinced that is more of the delay than when a spark hits the pan and ignites the main charge compared to the Mortimer. The Mortimer has no noticeable clack before bang if you know what I mean.

 

[denster]

I know exactly what you mean. I owned one of the Mortimer's for awhile and it was as fast as percussion. Spoils you for other locks.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I think the problem is my touch hole is too high above the pan. Any suggestions on a way to build up the bottom of the pan? I’m gonna try some jb weld to see if it will help and I know that is a temp fix.

JB is a good product, but will fail using near extremely hot powder flash . In another post you said more powder did not help. There is your answer. Higher pan bottom raises the powder, and you already know it won't help. Forget raising the pan bottom! Good luck
Flintlocklar

 

[M. De Land]

I converted one of my percussion rifles to flint a few months ago. The touch hole didn’t exactly line up with the pan on the L&R lock front to back so I widened the pan. The gun is very reliable with ignition but I feel it’s still too slow compared to other flint guns I have. I think the problem is my touch hole is too high above the pan. Any suggestions on a way to build up the bottom of the pan? I’m gonna try some jb weld to see if it will help and I know that is a temp fix. If it does help what is a permanent fix? Here is a pic of it. I just finished doing some shooting so yes I know it’s dirty. Is there any other type of epoxy or JB weld type Of material that would not burn away?

What about beefing up the cock spring and then balancing to a stronger frizzen spring. Also look for ways to lighten the cock without sacrificing adequate strength. I'm thinking some weight could be removed from the jaws as a little would probably go a long way at the top end in tandem with a stronger main spring.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Drill, tap, plug and redrill the hole where it should be.