Flat horn history

[toot]

Very early on horn was discovered to be able to be shaped into a myriad of things. Horn combs, spoons etc.

Once this was discovered a flattened horn was an easy thing to do.

it was called the plastic of the time's!

 

[toot]

as a flat horn was just a generic day horn, it wasn't worth the effort in the states. not to say that it wasn't done.

 

[French Colonial]

The flattened horns are as likley to get engraved / 'Scrimshawed 'as any other .They got flattened by HEAT not boiling as if sufficentley heated till they about melt( & drive the cook crazey ) As they do give of' A slight oader of melons'?, might be prudent to do this away from the house eh . A group of wooden wedges helps in this & a Book press is usefull . .The boiling idea seems the way to go but the horn will get a' memory' and is wont to revert to the original roundness , Wheras if cooked it will stay flat .The same as the flatted horn you find as butt plates or knife scales revolver grips ect & early arms such as .
.Scots horns seem to be decorated with a compass & circular forms . But later commercial offerings mostly Continental Europe with various charger tops where not offererd decorated & you don't see many with added work . Really earlier stag flasks & horns did see engraved work . Sailors ammusment 'Scrimshaw 'is the same idea cut into the horn surface then rub in some black gunk or coloured inks to get a 'polycrome' effect same idea as a tattoo . In the days before plastic all such items as butt plates knife scales .horn caps for shotguns all such as might today be plastic where made in shops with a lot of leg vise like set ups where the die was forced into hot horn trimmed to fit the die and as they cooled the next vise & the next to it would speed up the items required .. This trade was an important production of Sheffield and coupled with the hollow ware industry made the town a natural to produce powder flasks of lant horn & Ide expect any glass like items such as the stern' windows' of ships . There is or was a' pub 'called' The Pressers Arms '. Read 'Tavern' for some readers .
Regards Rudyard

I would like to know how this idea that if you flatten a horn by boiling it will revert to its original shape got started.

I have flattened 4-5 horns by boiling some a couple of decades ago and none have ever reverted, if they do how long does it take a hundred years or so?

I even had a well known horner who was a friend who believed this and stuck to the belief even after my successes.

That being said, I boil them for a LONG time, some times several hours until they are pretty soft and stick a wooden wedge in them, squeeze them in the vise and let set over night and have never had a problem.

 

[tenngun]

I would point to Europe where most guns were in the hands of the wealthy, military, or home defense. If you weren't wealthy you weren't hunting, or involved in shooting sports.
Contrast with America where large swaths of the population owned and regularly shot guns.
In Europe the wealthy had fine stuff made for them
The less then wealthy bought a gun and put it away.
In America the gun owner fiddled with his stuff.

 

[Ol' Traveler]

This is a very interesting thread. One of the best things about this Forum as a whole is all the amazing historical information.

 

[Rudyard]

Well originally I suppose the owner who made him self a powder horn was going to use it & not thinking about how to age it (time & abuse does that) Not saying he might try to reduce the shiny white bits , since I have just to have a less easily picked out item that its movment on you can be picked up by game. That surviveing horns do take on an aged appearance is down to it being OLD .(Know the feeling !) He or she wouldn't be thinking to blend in at Rendesvous like we might . Though they could Be going to one . I think I misread your enquiry but ile leave it as is .I would think todays horner would tend to age their work to look more plausable . I think enterpiseing UK horners would have produced horns for the Colonial market .Incidentaly I once bought a mid 18th c horn in a Liverpool junk shop undoubtably by the 'Pointed tree' carver .The vender ide asked did he have any powder flasks he says "No but we get them " & as I started to leave he holds up the horn "Its a blowing horn" he says ,The three pin bung being long lost so I haggled and away I go, still have it 50 years later if its in the US at present I shall try add a photo its got to sell in the US before I go into a hole . I was once told "$10.000 money in the bank " true once but today the major collectors are much thinned out with time .I was thinking Morphies .But am open to offers .
Regards Rudyard
Pics to follow

 

[oldwood]

Scrimshawed first, aged last. Some were naturally aged. Found an apparent antique horn in the rafters of an antique shop at the most northern end of Lake Champlain. Where it was heavily worn , the original natural color was snow white. The dark coating it displayed , could have been a coating to camouflage the highly visible white , and possibly if left white , would have been very visible in a dark woods. Not all horns were decorated. Personally , when I used to make a rifle , I used to put a horn with the rifle , because they were fun to make..........oldwood

 

[Rudyard]

I would like to know how this idea that if you flatten a horn by boiling it will revert to its original shape got started.

I have flattened 4-5 horns by boiling some a couple of decades ago and none have ever reverted, if they do how long does it take a hundred years or so?

I even had a well known horner who was a friend who believed this and stuck to the belief even after my successes.

That being said, I boil them for a LONG time, some times several hours until they are pretty soft and stick a wooden wedge in them, squeeze them in the vise and let set over night and have never had a problem.

How it began is down to the fact that boiling generally does have a memory . While heated dosn' t suffer this memory .That you & I have made horns either way dosn't alter the fact most all such horns where done by heating . I shall soon post photoes of horns Ive owned or made . The flat Scots horn blank was given me by Roland Cadle a noted Horner along with a larger horn both I made into Scots flasks .My smaller one being best suited for a hunt & the base has a protrusion with a square hole to tighten the Snaphance rifle flint jaws it being an early style I made in 45 cal . Though I wrote for the Honourable Horners Guild, I don't claim to be any Master Horner . But had a lot to do with Sheffield Horn scale cutters & cutlers who used to rent just such a horners workshop .On West Street they found drawers full of pressed items such as the horn tips commonly found on single ML shotguns . Items I allways fettled from solid when needed . The Firm of Scarlet & Whiteing where on Rockingham Street Mr Scarlet was our rent man in his spare time once & Mr Whiting was 90 still sawing up stag & horn for scales . They had an oven & a old book press to flatten out the nye melted horns . I asked Mr Whitting cutting up horn did he worry about the dust.? He replied " No it just made soup". On Mr Scarlets desk was an ivory carveing of Marshall Fosh & in his drawer was the' Dead mans penny' & scroll still there from the 14 /18 War when Mr Whittikers previous owners son was killed . .When they packed up I was offered the firm but I didn't want to be so tied to what was a very small & dieing industry . I used to buy pressed Buffalo horn from India & 'Sea Elephant 'tuskes from them . That Ide carve revolver grips from but where so hard a surface it dulled hacksaw blades you had to grind the surface of them. Anyway I digress Some like that & it is info you cant get anywhere else ! And the price is right .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Well I did get three pics as promised but the Scots flattened flask didn't get sent Ile try later .My E experts gone to town. Iv.e one of a boiled horn & the Heated flatted one . The boiled was made from scraps of wood & bits off a tractor while trapping Opposums in 1968 the charger nozzle was a three o three cartridge case . I couldnt bore out the rear no drill but oddly I did have a small cannon barrel so I contrived to fire a gun nail through it . You want primitive? I certainly had 'primitive ' them days . The scrimshawed Possom tree'd by a dog was off the Wilson Neal fur buyers advert .And the vine like thing is native' Supplejack.' & the hen like bird was my Weka that hung around my ' humpy '(Rude shack) as Ide flick it meat from skinning the furs . I made two muffed up waster pelts into a rude hat ' eat your heart out Ben Gunn ' it was just after the Ahanganua earth quake & there was often a' Boom' then the whole place shook & bounced my clock off the mantlepiece but it didn't work so wasnt a problem , You got used to the after shakes . The district nurse called me 'The wild man of Borneo . She may have had a point . I didn't make much but still fondly recall my time on the West Coast chaseing opposums & kept some skins in the bottom of my sleeping bag for years .
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

I would like to know how this idea that if you flatten a horn by boiling it will revert to its original shape got started.

I have flattened 4-5 horns by boiling some a couple of decades ago and none have ever reverted, if they do how long does it take a hundred years or so?

I even had a well known horner who was a friend who believed this and stuck to the belief even after my successes.

That being said, I boil them for a LONG time, some times several hours until they are pretty soft and stick a wooden wedge in them, squeeze them in the vise and let set over night and have never had a problem.

never, as the branch is bent so shall the tree grow! it will never straighten up again!

 

[oreclan]

Scrimshawed flat horns can be found in Germany.

Also common in Scotland.

 

[david w]

Also common in Scotland.

I intended to mention that.

 

[Coinneach]

Well I did get three pics as promised but the Scots flattened flask didn't get sent Ile try later .My E experts gone to town. Iv.e one of a boiled horn & the Heated flatted one . The boiled was made from scraps of wood & bits off a tractor while trapping Opposums in 1968 the charger nozzle was a three o three cartridge case . I couldnt bore out the rear no drill but oddly I did have a small cannon barrel so I contrived to fire a gun nail through it . You want primitive? I certainly had 'primitive ' them days . The scrimshawed Possom tree'd by a dog was off the Wilson Neal fur buyers advert .And the vine like thing is native' Supplejack.' & the hen like bird was my Weka that hung around my ' humpy '(Rude shack) as Ide flick it meat from skinning the furs . I made two muffed up waster pelts into a rude hat ' eat your heart out Ben Gunn ' it was just after the Ahanganua earth quake & there was often a' Boom' then the whole place shook & bounced my clock off the mantlepiece but it didn't work so wasnt a problem , You got used to the after shakes . The district nurse called me 'The wild man of Borneo . She may have had a point . I didn't make much but still fondly recall my time on the West Coast chaseing opposums & kept some skins in the bottom of my sleeping bag for years .
Regards Rudyard

IMHO you're about as authentic as a man can be Ruddy, never change.

 

[Tanker]

I just started making powder horns. I have made 1 flattish one so far. It's definitely not hard to flatten and it stays when it cools. Historically speaking I have seen a few in books but even then I couldn't be sure if that are authentic. Picture below is the one I made. The guy that wanted it ask me to make it for pan powder.

 

[david w]

I just started making powder horns. I have made 1 flattish one so far. It's definitely not hard to flatten and it stays when it cools. Historically speaking I have seen a few in books but even then I couldn't be sure if that are authentic. Picture below is the one I made. The guy that wanted it ask me to make it for pan powder.

Nice, but I would prefer on the original flag of 13 stars in a circle.

 

[Tanker]

Nice, but I would prefer on the original flag of 13 stars in a circle.

I would too, that's what he wanted though.

 

[oreclan]

I would like to know how this idea that if you flatten a horn by boiling it will revert to its original shape got started.

I have flattened 4-5 horns by boiling some a couple of decades ago and none have ever reverted, if they do how long does it take a hundred years or so?

I even had a well known horner who was a friend who believed this and stuck to the belief even after my successes.

That being said, I boil them for a LONG time, some times several hours until they are pretty soft and stick a wooden wedge in them, squeeze them in the vise and let set over night and have never had a problem.

Boiling in oil at 330 degrees or heating to that temperature will make it permanent ...that's the way horners did / do it.

 

[French Colonial]

And as I said politely before but now will say..... bull hockey. None of the horns that I have flattened by boiling in water have reverted, PERIOD.

Oil is probably faster, thats all.

 

[Rudyard]

IMHO you're about as authentic as a man can be Ruddy, never change.

Despite the miopic notions some seem to have, I append a pic of a small Scots Horn formed by heat with its square ' spanner' to tighten the flint. Then a boiled horn made while chaseing Opposums with the dog bailing up an Opposum . Then the' humpy' shack with hot & cold running After shake tremors . Hard to see but there are two Native flightless Weka's in the fore ground . and against the hut beside two dead possums leans a matchlock 'got up' from a scrap tube with treaded ends for some reason but though I had no hack saw I had a piece of broken blade suffice to lop off the muzzle end then the breach end , with no drill I used the blade to saw a star like reduction which with the aid of a Concrete nail punched the vent through , The pan was a Shroder Valve cap tin (Whatever they are ). The stock a length of Rimu. Its lock and ramrod of the iconic 'number 8 wire' contrived into a combined match holder pivot & trigger in one . I had powder & a jungle carbine . But not best suited for small game. Though I et a lot of Opposum' tree rats '. To the rear is the Karamea Bluff . Certainly its your' Fixer upper ' But it was ,home sweet home ,for me the winter of 1968 . Thank you Coinreach for your kind comment .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Coinneach]

Despite the miopic notions some seem to have, I append a pic of a small Scots Horn formed by heat with its square ' spanner' to tighten the flint. Then a boiled horn made while chaseing Opposums with the dog bailing up an Opposum . Then the' humpy' shack with hot & cold running After shake tremors . Hard to see but there are two Native flightless Weka's in the fore ground . and against the hut beside two dead possums leans a matchlock 'got up' from a scrap tube with treaded ends for some reason but though I had no hack saw I had a piece of broken blade suffice to lop off the muzzle end then the breach end , with no drill I used the blade to saw a star like reduction which with the aid of a Concrete nail punched the vent through , The pan was a Shroder Valve cap tin (Whatever they are ). The stock a length of Rimu. Its lock and ramrod of the iconic 'number 8 wire' contrived into a combined match holder pivot & trigger in one . I had powder & a jungle carbine . But not best suited for small game. Though I et a lot of Opposum' tree rats '. To the rear is the Karamea Bluff . Certainly its your' Fixer upper ' But it was ,home sweet home ,for me the winter of 1968 . Thank you Coinreach for your kind comment .
Regards Rudyard

I've been holding a flat priming horn I made for years here, waiting for a scrimshaw design that appeals to me, that one of yours there shines to this mans eye.

Thankfully we were raised to be practical and make do, tinkering and making our own wherever possible became a joy in our lives.