Flint Orientation

[Chris Cade]

another newbie question, i've noticed that some shooter have their flint angled up while others have their flint angled down. is there a difference??

 

[rich pierce]

One way strikes the frizzen higher, also the angle is changed. Try it both ways and see if it makes a difference. Some locks like it one way, some the other. Another little secret- when a flint gets worn, turning it over will sometimes help it get a few more shots w/o knapping.

 

[Robert Egler]

My Traditions flinter eats flints used bevel up, I can only get 3 or 4 shots before I have to touch it up, maybe 20 shots total and the flint is trash. But if I turn it bevel down it lasts 50 shots before a touch up is needed. It hits higher on the frizen bevel down, so maybe that's the difference, I'm not sure. I'd suggest trying it one way and if that doesn't work out well, try the other way.

 

[paulvallandigham]

In a well designed lock, the flint should strike the frizzen about 60% of the distance above the bottom of the face.

The angle that the flint strikes the frizzen should be between 55 and 60 Degrees at the point of impact, with the base line of the protractor set along the bottom line of the flint or the top of the bottom jaw of the cock. The second side of the angle is determined by running a line from the point of impact to the top inside( backside) edge of the frizzen.

There are foreign made locks that do not meet these optimum design guidelines. Some work; many don't. Some can be fixed; others can't. Those that can be fixed often will require an expense that exceeds the value of a new lock.

In addition, many locks come with frizzen springs that are way too strong for the limited work they are intended to do, suggesting that the manufacturer has no idea how a flintlock action works! The same problems crop up with mainsprings that are poorly designed, or too strong, and sear bar return springs that are shaped wrong, or push on the wrong spot, and may be either too weak or too strong to do the job right. All these things, together with warped lock plates, burrs on parts, lack of polishing of contact points affect how well tuned the lock is, and hence how it performs. Many of the problems I have seen with foreign made locks stem from the lack of knowledge about the shrinkage of cast parts during the cooling phase. When an original part is used " as-is" for a casting form, the cast part that comes out is usually smaller in several dimensions, and the degree of shrinkage varies with the amount of metal at any give point. It is not a surprise to see cocks that are too short to make the reach to the frizzen, so that shooter have to load the flint with the bevel down just to get a proper hit to the frizzen, and to get the frizzen to snap open at about a 30 degree angle.

On the other hand, a well known manufacturer was building cocks that were too long, and is now replacing the entire locks on older models sent in for repairs, with a new lock with a cock that is the appropriate length. The new locks work quite well.

Before we start condemning anyone over this state of affairs, we should remember how much information was lost during the 19th and early 20th century when gun builders ceased to make these older style actions, to build new breechloaders. Until Bill Ruger popularized investment casting for the Post WWII gun Industry, as a cost saving device, almost no cast parts had been made for guns since before WWI. The knowledge was mostly lost, and is only slowly being regained as a few dedicated builders " reinvent the wheel ".

 

[shootemup]

Paul,
Your posts are always extremely informative and I (among many I'm sure) always enjoy it when you chime in. :applause:

Spot

 

Whatever makes your gun go boom is the way you want the flint to be oriented.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

In my Chmabers late ketland, if I bevel up, Ill get a few shots off, and the rock will break.

Beveled down Ive used the same rock for 2 rondys now.

 

[FPDoc]

Bevel up on my GPR/Investarms and the flint won't reach the frizzen. Bevel down and the flint hits slightly above half-way. This is with 3/4" square knapped flints. Were Investarms locks designed for slightly longer flints?

 

[roundball]

another newbie question, i've noticed that some shooter have their flint angled up while others have their flint angled down. is there a difference??

Here's one example about a particular lock so you can get some additional insight to the relationships of flint, frizzen, etc.

As others have mentioned the objective is for the leading edge of the flint to strike the face of the frizzen in a slightly downward slicing angle...you literally want the sharp flint to be able to shave off bits of steel from the face, and just like chopping down a tree you know you want that axe to be hitting downward into the truck with a good angle to slice into the wood.

TC's original lock design had a hammer that was too short...if you installed a flint bevel up, it would strike the frizzen very low at the halfway mark or even slightly lower...this made it difficult for the flint to get much slicing action because it started so low on the face.

If you flipped the flint over so it was bevel down, this would raise the leading edge of the flint, positioning it higher so it would strike the frizzen higher.

This was a good thing as you want it striking about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down from the top of the frizzen...the problem with the old design TC lock however was even though the flint struck higher, it no longer had any downward angle of attack so to speak, and instead was smashing straight into the face of the frizzen...this lead to "eating flints", short flint life, poor sparking, etc, and caused TC's flint lock assemblies to get a bad reputation.

The good news is they redesigned the lock properly, and 3/4"W (x 7/8"L) Tom Fuller black English flints seem tailor made for them...to your question, working best bevel up in TC's current redesigned lock.

But remember, once you figure this out for your particular lock, you can't just sigh and think "now I can forget about it"...because the flint/frizzen relationship is a dynamic one...gradually changing as soon as you start using that flint and wearing it down shorter...and if the proper relationship is not maintained throughout the life of the flint, as it wears shorter it will start hitting lower and lower on the frizzen and will usually become less reliable, etc.

You will usually find that by flipping it over so its then bevel down it's edge will be higher, raising the flint/frizzen POI back up to where it should be to compensate for the shorter length...and as Rich mentioned, a good side effect of flipping flints back and forth every 10-15 shots is that flints will sort of self-knap themselves and avoid even the few seconds it takes to manually knapp an edge during a range session.

So as one reference, a medium size TC flint lock assembly likes Fuller 3/4 x 7/8 BEFs set bevel up”¦and they average 50-70 shots per flint often without any knapping at all”¦then more shots if I start knapping and tinkering with them.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I start mine bevel up and flip them as I wear and reshape the edge. Cheap - that's me.

 

[Dphar]

another newbie question, i've noticed that some shooter have their flint angled up while others have their flint angled down. is there a difference??

If the lock works best with the flint bevel up I fix it. It has a problem of some sort.
I have had a number of locks over the years in my own guns, Dixie GW, Russ Hamm (several), Siler (several both sizes), L&R 2-3, some made from parts with a custom plate and lately a Manton made from castings.
With the flint bevel up some would strike the top jaw screw on the frizzen if the flint was at all short. None work best with the flint bevel up. Flint strikes too low and often will not produce good sparks since it scratches the face of the frizzen differently.
The Manton is considerably different than the others with a frizzen pivot much farther from the pan. This lock very seldom needs any flint adjustment or knapping. Flints last well and generally if you get a missfire its time to change the flint, some can be set out. And Yes, it has pretty stiff springs.
Weak frizzen springs can cause frizzen rebound that snaps the flint off at the jaw. The spring has 3 jobs. It holds the frizzen closed, it maintains some pressure against the flint and if properly made and adjusted to the frizzen it keeps the frizzen from rebounding.
Mainspring must be strong enough to get good sparks. Some are not. Too much can break flints by striking too hard on the frizzen or by the frizzen rebounding from being flung open with too much force.
The two forces much be balanced properly.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: I politely disagree about frizzen springs. The spring has Only ONE JOB: That is keeping the frizzen closed when the barrel is pointed downward. A good timed and tuned lock will fire and produce sparks all day long with NO frizzen spring in the lock at all! As for rebounding, the frizzen weighs less than 1/2 lb. on all but the huge bess style locks. If the heel and toe of the frizzen are polished and designed properly, its not going to come back and strike a flint edge. I have frizzen springs with less than 1 1/2 lb of tension that work perfectly. I like 3 lbs, as a general rule, just because that seems to work well in a wider variety of locks.

See my article:
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm[/url] concerning the tuning and shooting of flintlocks.

I do want a flint to scrape steel off the face of the frizzen.

I do set the angle of the cock so that the POI of the flint to the frizzen is at a 60 degree angle, with the bottom axis running along a line on the top of the bottom jaw of the cock, the point of impact being the center of the angle, and the rearward tip of the frizzen being the location of the upper axis of the angle. With that 60 degree angle, the flint knapps itself. The flint should strike the frizzen between 60% and 75% UP from the bottom of the frizzen. It should leave a clean even consistent scrape mark from the point of impact, to about 3/8" from the bottom of the frizzen's face. The frizzen should begin to move open when the flint is about 1/3 from the bottom.

The frizzen should be smooth, and oiled so that it easily pops open when struck by the flint. That means both the pivot pin or screw must be oiled, and the contact point between the heel of the frizzen, and the frizzen spring contact area needs to be either oiled, or greased. If the contact area is polished mirror smooth, oil should suffice.

Most locks have mainsprings that are too strong, and that gobble up flints. I reduce mainspring tension to 10-15 lbs. depending on the lock and gun. I have had mainsprings much lighter than this still give good sparks. Most of the springs will be closer to 30 lbs., and the huge bess style colonial locks often have tension exceeding 40 lbs. That bruises your thumb when cocking the cock, and shatters those huge musket flints in 3 or 4 firings. That is way too costly, considering the increasing cost of flints these day. Its also unnecessary, as with a properly tuned lock, you can easily get more than 100 shots from those huge musket flints. I am getting 80 or more strikes from the flints in my large siler lock, that I tuned.

 

[roundball]

If the lock works best with the flint bevel up I fix it. It has a problem of some sort.I have had a number of locks over the years in my own guns, Dixie GW, Russ Hamm (several), Siler (several both sizes), L&R 2-3, some made from parts with a custom plate and lately a Manton made from castings.

:hmm: That's a pretty bold across the board statement to make about all the Flintlock assemblies in existence given all the different physical sizes, dimensions, etc, not to mention you only have a partial list.

Now if you're just referring to those locks that you listed that may be, although I'll say I never heard that even those locks have a problem if they work with the bevel up...

 

[Deadeye]

Some shooters say bevel up when the bevel and the hump are on top, others I've heard say bevel up when the hump is on the bottom and the bevel is pointing up,then there's flints like in the pic thats the same bevel on both sides, what would one call it? All my guns, rifle and pistol, have always worked best with the hump on top but the last rifle I made with a Siler large lock wouldn't even open the frizzen with the hump on top but with the hump on the bottom it now has 194
shots (with only one klatch at #87 and that's the only time I've knapped it) the edge is smooth and sharp and the frizzen is smooth and scraped evenly
There may be something wrong with this lock but I'm not changing anything. I'm shooting it this weekend at a Turkey shoot with that same flint.
I wasn't responding to you, Roundball, your's was just the last post.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Right. I'm about the only one in my club who shoots with the bevel down. I use an old Siler on my .40 and it has never worked well bevel up. However, the other guys are using the same lock as well as those by Chambers, Roller, L & R &c. I can't explain it other than minute differences between locks even those made by the same manufacturer. So, it would be a rather broad statement.

 

[Deadeye]

It seems that although most everyone had an opinion on bevel up or down, no one seems to
want to commit as to what bevel up or down means.
Is there anyone here that knows,if so, please tell me. No guesses, the real answer, thanks,
Deadeye

 

[brubincam]

a knapped flint has a flat side and most have a hump on the other side, that hump is the bevel,,,CHEERS,,,

 

[Robert Egler]

With a cut flint the end of the flint toward the frizen with the bevel up looks like:
__
__\

The bevel down looks like:

___
__/

 

[Stumpkiller]

What he said.

And remember: "The bevel is in the details."

 

[Johnny Tremain]

My flints are straight, they only like female frizzens!