Dan Phariss said:
ebiggs said:
“Am I the most diplomatic poster? Probably not.”
Agreed! :grin:
“But a fact is a fact ...”
This “fact” is just your opinion.
Just like every factory gun is a pipe bomb because Dan Phariss didn't install the breech plug.
I have several different brands of locks and I know what I see. Is a Chambers lock prettier than a TC lock. Yeah, it is, but does it work better, I doubt it.
I don't disagree with you on any Traditions or CVA and most of the other lesser seen imports, as they are pretty crude and sloppy but the new style TC and Pedersoli's are pretty darn good. With a little tweaking, which seems to be accepted by you, a Lyman GPR is a pretty darn good lock also.
But you dump everything into one category, it's either Dan Phariss' or it isn't.
Mr. Phariss I am sure you are a fine machinists but even after considerable polishing a diamond is still a diamond. And every factory muzzle loader is not a pipe bomb. “But a fact is a fact ...” to refer to a quote I read.
Facts can be distorted by many things. Lack of knowledge is one.
ALL are junk. You have miss read me I think.
Many of the imports have SUPERIOR barrel steels compared to many ML barrels made here.
The better ones are actually pretty good. The Perdersoli "Gibbs" for example has an exemplary record in long range matches. But on sale at DGW its $1495 so it costs what, three times what most people here will pay for what they think is a "good" ML.
Still when one looks at some of the Japanese made stuff like the "ultra-hi" some of which barely came up the the standard of "junk" and some of the dismal stuff that was featured in ads in 1960s Muzzle Blasts the term "pipe bomb" does come to mind. Just because they don't fail does not mean they are "good" or even safe.
It seems a great many experts here have expertise coming from shooting or even being able to swap parts around in a factory made. This is not expertise in gunmaking.
So if a pretty good reproduction lists for about 1700 bucks what DOES this say of the 495-595 stuff. Would it too rate as "pretty good" or perhaps only "serviceable"?
The factory mades, with the possible exception of the original CVA Mountain Rifle which really were nicely breeched, have pretty poor breech installations. Will they blow out, no, its near impossible given the strength of the threaded joint. Are they RIGHT? No.
FOr example, some had, and may have had right to the end of production, grossly overtorqued breech plugs this has been know by people who paid attention since they came on the market, very big name maker now...
They installed the breeches by machine, we were told, to do this required a gap at the front of the threads. This was to prevent the threaded portion from bottoming during installation. Since the body of the breech stopped when it met the end of the barrel but the breech was turned in to meet the top flat regardless of torque. This stretched the rebated portion at the BACK of the threads and stressed it excessively.
It was so stressed due to heavy torque than they were not generally removable and would often BREAK OFF at the rebate when removable was attempted.
But of course everyone here knows this... Right?
Other brands are not torqued to this extent, the Browning for example, but it still had the dandy fouling/oil trap from the gap at the front of the threaded portion.
This one looked like this when removed.
The rust at the very front is a result of the fouling trap. It likes to spread. But this rifle, fortunately was used with BP not a corrosive substitute and it actually cleaned OK and the bore was not rusted since it was easy to clean.
But then I am sure you have pulled or installed a lot of breeches.
You surely have;
Made breeches of various sorts.
These are two flint breeches from my first swivel they have been shot probably 40-50 round each and just pulled from the barrels. No fouling traps, no fouling mixed with the anti-sieze. Because the breeches SEALED THE BORE and no fouling or gases could get into some hidden spot.
Recut nipple seats so they seal properly.
Built swivel breech actions from scratch with no plans?
Make 2 piece brazed Hawken buttplates.
Made iron trigger guards for pistols
and rifles.
Made single and double set triggers from bar stock.
I am sure you know why this RR hole was intentionally drilled at an angle.
Have you ever made one of these?
and fit it to a barrel so its perfectly aligned with the bore?
So you could load these cloth patched bullets?
Which you made the swage for too of course to make them from lead wire.
The guns shown above are all stock from blanks, the pistol stocks were all cut from a hard maple plank.
Its an 18 pound match rifle.
This is my sighter/backer target from the targets shown with the rifle.
Machinist? No. I can get by at it but I am a gunsmith specializing in 18th and 19th c firearms.
I started building guns on my mother's dining room table in a farm house in Iowa. Getting close to 50 years at it with a few breaks here and there.
In that time I have learned things from other "gun guys", from gunsmiths, some I despised but learned from, others are life long friends I also learned from. Experience taught me a lot.
Learned a lot about QUALITY gun work from various people.
I try to make things as perfect as I can. Do I get this done? Nope. Nobody I know does. There are ALWAYS hiccups and divots and goofs. But knowing how to FIX them is part of the skill set.
Knowing how to PROPERLY breech a barrel is too. But the factory mades don't have the time when selling a rifle for 350 bucks or less wholesale.
So they cut corners. Sometimes its just an inconvenience or irritation. Sometimes its a safety issue.
Like this "Ultra-Hi" made by one of the biggest names in firearms in Japan.
This is what people get when they don't pay enough. Its better to pay more for a good gun than its worth than to pay too little and get something like this. Some of these, while capable of being fired were so out of line as to trap patches and jags at the juncture of the barrel halves.
Are ALL cheap MLs this bad? No. But all have problems that I would not allow out of my shop if I had worked on them. The Pedersoli's surely do too if I were to disassemble one. Does this make them a pipe bomb? Not necessarily. If I had a Pedersoli I would not worry about shooting it. Good barrels and they are at least proved.
Facts? I consider good gun work to be better than low quality gun work to be a fact. I consider fouling traps in breeched to be both a fact and a safety/reliability concern. I find poorly shaped stock to be visually offensive. Be they on old guns or new. If people cannot tell poorly shaped from properly shaped and contoured that is not my concern. There are rules that should be followed. Doing them right takes time. Time is money.
If I were alone in my beliefs about breeching and poor steels and ugly shaping then I suppose I might be wrong. But I am neither alone in this nor am I wrong.
Facts? The FACTS I have listed can be demonstrated. They can be explained. But as I have said before there is a level of willful ignorance in the ML community and this encompasses some high end custom makers and people who shoot some stuff that is REALLY scary and people in between. They don't want to know and will not accept facts that disagree with what they want to do.
That is what makes posts of this sort so futile in some respects.
Dan
