Flint

[roundball]

I disagree with that.

Right you are on all counts...'patent breeches' / 'chambered breeches' were invented and designed to SPEED UP ignition...which they do extremely well...and anyone with hands on experience with them know that without question.
You obviously have hands on experience and can speak from actual knowledge, not theory.

In fact they do that job so well that I've sent two Rice barrels to McCandless Custom Breeching in New Mexico (recommended by TOW) to have patent breech plugs made and fitted to the barrels...I have no interest in owning a barrel without one.

 

[Deadeye]

No offence to you Roundball, I know you love those things (after more than 60 yrs. of hands on experience I don't like them). Wouldn't have one. I'd like to hear from Mike Brooks or Jim Chambers or some top competition shooters as to what they think of them. Maybe the Bevel Bros. would take on the job of finding out if they are faster.
Deadeye

 

[roundball]

Maybe the Bevel Bros. would take on the job of finding out if they are faster.

None taken, and just so we’re clear, it doesn't matter to me personally what anybody likes or dislikes, uses, doesn't use, etc...its all personal choice. The problem I and obviously others have is when some people make "across the board statements" about something when clearly an "across the board statement" is incorrect, and that's what my/our posts were about.
PS: I thought Larry Pletch had run some speed tests on straight vs. patent breeches.


You mentioned you had a bad experience with a patent breech...and no way I’ll challenge that of course...you had whatever experience you had.
But by contrast, I’d be surprised of you'd take issue with the fact that since Nock's Patent Breech was invented way back in 1787 they've been pretty well proven to work as advertised, and as a result have continued to proliferate and survive in a variety of forms of muzzleloading implementation over the past 2&1/2 centuries.

They cost more to make than a simple straight breech so they haven't survived because they’re cheaper, suggesting to me that their survival would have to be performance based. My own little bit of experience includes a couple dozen multiple brands of rifled and smoothbore barrels made by T/C, GM, and Rice during the past 18 years of those 2&1/2 centuries and I couldn't be more satisfied with their performance...a couple of other side benefits is that they are virtually self-cleaning, fouling doesn't get involved with blocking fire, and I don't even own a vent pick.

Here's one reference if you Google up "Nocks Patent Breech":
http://books.google.com/books?id=o...um=4#v=onepage&q=nock's patent breech&f=false

 

[poordevil]

Trap
I am with you. I have been shooting Black Powder since 1973 and have tried Flintlocks and just prefer percussion. Some will say that a good flint lock is as reliable as percussion, but that is just not so. It seems that to get a flint to go bang every time one needs to spend a couple thousand dollars. And even then it will not always fire. Don't let the "usual suspects" get you. This is a Muzzleloading forum, not Flintlock.

P

 

[paulvallandigham]

What both of you say is true, but it may not apply to these current European Imports. I have not pulled the barrel and breechplug apart on these " Traditions" flinters, personally, But I have talked to gunsmiths who have done dozens. They are NOT the quality of your Thompson Center Hawken, Roundball, or the Lyman GPR. The Flash channel is apparently smaller than what you find in these other Nock Breeches. The Quality of workmanship is definitely poorer on the Traditions guns.

I suggest that you consider that these factors DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE in the performance of such guns, and can( and does) negate the "speed" factor originally intended by Nock, that you both describe.

Phil Quaglino had taken several of these guns apart, then used an end mill to cut out the powder chamber and shorten the flash channel to that of the width of the barrel thickness. It allows the bore sized cleaning jag to clean the back of the barrel/front of the breechplug completely. It eliminates the small hole in the back of the powder chamber, and cuts a flat face in the plug, so that the TH now comes into the chamber from the side. Between doing those modifications on the breechplug, and some tuning of the lock, he manages to give back to the owners of these guns a rifle that is capable of shooting more than 5 shots before it shuts down.

I have previously suggested that if one wants to keep a Nock breech gun "as is", that the owner needs to have a gunsmith check any such gun, that is having ignition problems, to see if there is any casting debris in the flash channel, remove it, then enlarge the channel to the next drill size, and in so doing getting rid of any burrs that might exist on the edge of the small hole entering the powder chamber.

Any widening of that flash channel and entry hole will allow powder to flow easier into the flash channnel and get nearer to the TH for reliable ignition. I also believe that the limitations of these factory chosen hole sizes is why FFFg powder seems to work so much better in these guns than does FFg. That is okay with me, IF the shooter understands what he has to do to get a flint version of these breeches to fire.

One final thought for you to ponder: If the Nock system is so wonderful, why are there not more National Records made with guns that are so breeched? Why does NOT the Nock breech show up on the Slug Gun range being used to shoot tiny groups at long ranges??? :hmm:

 

[roundball]

"...This is a Muzzleloading forum, not Flintlock..."

PS:

Please note that he posted about Flintlock issues in the Flintlock category.

 

[redwing]

Deadeye, the last I knew you were and are a very outstanding compt. shooter. You are also a very good gunsmith. I would take what you have to say as fact. :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I have patent breeches on my percussion guns and they work fine. I think part of the reason for their success is that the cap blows the chamber clear with each shot. In any case, they light off so fast that from trigger let-off to muzzle flash seems instantaneous. I would match my Hawken with its Schillinger lock against any sidelock out there speedwise.

I'm not so fond of patent breeches on flintlocks, having had too many that were inconsistant from shot to shot and required cleaning in the field due to crud build up. The old style flat breech never has this problem and the ignition speed difference isn't enough to be noticed. I'm sure it's there, though. I think the main problem is that the priming doesn't blow the chamber area clear with each shot. A nicely coned old fashioned vent works good enough for me.

It would be interesting to hear how the patent breech works for you, Roundball. With your past experience, you're in a good position to evaluate it. A drawing of the breech would be good too. Another problem with modern patent breeches is that so many of them are just plain made wrong, and this has given them an unwarranted bad reputation.

 

[Claude Mathis]

This is a Muzzleloading forum, not Flintlock.

In the broad sense that's correct, although we do have different categories, for different muzzleloading firearms. Nobody is required to like all of them, but they do have to be polite when discussing them. :wink:

 

[roundball]

Another problem with modern patent breeches is that so many of them are just plain made wrong, and this has given them an unwarranted bad reputation.

Might be something to that, dunno...I'm not an authority on patent breeches / chambered breeches.
I only have two frames of reference to draw conclusions from and both are in my post above:
1) All the literature that exists about the breeches and their apparent success that has led to them becoming a permanent part of muzzleloading for at least 2&1/2 centuries;
2) My own use of them for a number of years...8 years caplocks, 10 years Flintlocks, 3 different manufacturers.

I can say that the ones I've owned from TC and GM differ a bit from Nock's original configuration (see drawing at link above)...the difference is that Nock's has the horizontal 'ante-chamber' going further across underneath the intersection with the vertical step down powder chambers.
T/C and GM plug internal designs seem to be that the incoming horizontal powder chamber (from the vent) stops at and underneath the bottom of the vertical step-down powder chambers...they bore down into the end of the horizontal channel...the horizontal chamber does not seem to go past the vertical chambers.

The reduced diameter of the end of the upper powder chamber results in the end of the breech plug that's threaded into the barrel presenting a shoulder, that's smaller diameter than the barrel and a cleaning jag stops on top of it...not being allowed to push fouling down into the powder chambers or fire channels which is known to cause ignition problems by blocking fire from the pan. With most of the main charge sitting above the step down powder chambers, I get the impression that the backblast pressure during ignition & main charge burn is what keeps the patent breech powder chambers and fire channels blown clear.

I also think / believe that the ignition & main burn disintegrates / burns off / carries up & out with it (?) the previous shot's bit of fouling that might have been pushed down to the top of the shoulder of the patent breech threaded end, if I had used a cleaning jag to wipe between shots. Everything just seems to stay super clean in that whole area as I've never had build-up there to cause any problems...my guess is some kind of pressure dynamics are going on there in spite of shooting a 50 shot range session for example.

That's about all I know or have concluded on the subject...not trying to convince anybody they should use them or not...they've just always been great for me so my personal choice is to use them. Right or wrong, I sure wouldn't have paid to send 2 new Rice barrels to New Mexico and back, and paid to have custom patent breech plugs machined and fitted to them if I didn't believe their performance was worth it to me.

:v

 

[Old Salt]

I look at ML as a hobby or a pastime. I want to enjoy myself during either activity. I recommend doing what you enjoy the most.

Salt

 

[Mulebrain]

Sorry for the confusion, it is the flint rifle, not flints. Its this rifle..... http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/...parentType=index&indexId=cat601141&hasJS=true

I mean, i hit the target each time, but it just is not for me. Did well with my percussion though....

Well, that rifle is made by Investarm Italy, the same company that produces Lymans rifles. These are not top notch, but should perform well! I have had Investarm before, and the quality was good!

You may be experiencing a slight delay compared to your caplock. Once you get the right combo for ignition, your opinion may change quickly!

 

[smo]

I still own two investarms .50 cal perc guns.They are older guns but the fit on them is better than the fit on my GPR which as Mule said is made by investarms. I do not own a investarms flint but i do own a GPR & a Renegade flint which i have had very little trouble from either one,even with the high humidity here in S. Fl. Keep em' clean & they'll shoot :v

 

[hanshi]

All the bp guns I've bought in the last several years have flat breeches. That's all I care to own and prefer not to acquire any with patent breeches. I do own 3 factory rifles with patent breeches and have never had any problem with any of them, firing or cleaning. Okay, then. Well, I just don't like patent breeches (I guess I remember patent leather). I really don't have a reason as they've always worked fine for me. Weird, huh? What can I say?

 

[shmrck1]

Well despite some obvious conflicts,I think this has been a very informative thread. Nothing has changed my mind,I prefer percussion but do not shy away the F/L. I have a Lyman GPR in .50
that serves me quite well. Just my opinion.
snake-eyes

 

[smo]

Same here Snake :thumbsup: At least at the range. However if i were around back in the day i would have carried a flint for reasons stated above :wink:

 

[Halftail]

I look at ML as a hobby or a pastime. I want to enjoy myself during either activity. I recommend doing what you enjoy the most.

Salt

Probably one of the better posts ever made. :v

 

[MSW]

Speed Trap- hate to see you give it up without a fight, so to speak, but if you've given flinters, in your best good- faith estimation, a fair shot, then go with what works for you.

you might have been stuck with what car dealers call a lemon, or just that one out of the batch which probably snuck past the Q.A. guys and won't work no matter what you do, so if you run into a fellow at the range who would let you fire a few shots out of his or her flinter, you might see a different result.

as regards the Nock breech, i've only owned one, and it's worked fine for me. i can't help but suspect that the discussion of 'speed' is pretty theoretical (especially if you're not a very good shot, as i am - not) but again, if you really want a flat breech face, then get a barrel with a flat breech face, but i agree that we should avoid the

"real men don't.." (as in real men don't use non- stick cookware) arguement... it just degenerates into a grade school recess p&*^ing contest.

if you can't make the flint do what you want, make the cap do what you want. you have an absolute, self- evident, Constitutionally protected right to shoot any kind of rifle you see fit. remember that you're in this hobby to make you happy, not to impress anyone else, so do what makes you happy!

go forth (to the range) and make good smoke!
(end of tirade)

 

[hanshi]

Okay, I love flint guns and spend most of my time with them. Now I wouldn't want this to get out so this is just between us girls but....well, I also like and shoot caplocks. My all time favorite is a US M1841 "Mississippi" rifle in .54. It has taken deer and is accurate enough to get me branded as a liar! I also have a little .32 Crockett from way back that just loves squirrels. Everyone has a dark secret and these two rifles are mine.

I'd recommend to anyone disappointed with flint to go to the range and try out one with a friendly owner. You might decide a flint is in your future, after all.