Flinters - Is this new rifle of mine faulty?

G'day,

I have added another BP rifle to my collection but I have some doubts about it. :cry: Having owned quite a few Pedersoli firearms I am not doubting the general quality of their products for my money.

I purchased a Mortimer S240 flintlock rifle in .54 calibre. I use WANO powder - FFFg for the main charge and FFFFg for the pan. I use black english flints. I have no problems with getting a good ignition but no success with setting off the main charge. I can however get it to fire if I pour FFFFg into the vent hole. (I have used the same powder from the same flasks with my Kentucky flintlock pistol with perfect ignition everytime.)

After the problems on the weekend (it's first outing) I unscrewed the vent and the plug opposite it to make sure there was no problems in the breech plug. I might say I can pour fluid (metho) down the barrel and out the vent albeit it was not fast???? To my surprise the hole in the front of the breech plug to the bore is no more than about .030 inches. (I have not been able to measure it yet.) This means that when the main charge is loaded nothing enters into the breech plug cavity. Even if I pour FFFFg down the barrel before the main charge nothing enters the breech plug cavity.

I ask your opinion. :master: Doesn't there need to be powder on the otherside of the vent liner for the flash to ignite the main charge? As I said earlier the main charge will go off if I pour powder (3 gns) into the vent liner. Am I correct that the flash should not be expected to enter the vent (around .060 hole) expand in the breech plug cavity then turn the flame front 90 degrees and go up a small hole to the back of the main charge?

I am in discussion with Pedersoli and the Australian importer but I would value your comments as well.

Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob

 

[jtmattison]

You should have powder in the breech. You can't ignite it if it isn't there.
It sounds like there is some defect with your rifle.
Have you tried getting a bore brush down there? Maybe there is some material down there that needs to be cleaned out.
The breech area is always smaller than the bore but it should be wide open so powder can get down where it belongs.

Huntin

 

G'day Huntin,

I have poked everything I can think of down the hole. Bear in mind that it has been shot a few times by priming in the vent liner and even this has not cleared the hole. :shake:

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob

 

[TANSTAAFL]

This sounds like a faulty product, pure & simple.

I have my own story on Pedersoli, and it ain't purty.

 

[No Deer]

I have the Mortimer 12 ga. shotgun from Pedersoli. It also has the patent breech, but I have never had a problem with it. It goes off everytime. Couldn't tell you how big the hole is going from the barrel to the breech, never measured it, but it looks to be slightly less than half the size of the bore when looking down the barrel with a flashlite. I like mine, hope you have good luck figureing it out.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Certainly not an expert with flint but it does sound like either your flash channel might be obstructed, the vent liner flash port too small or both.

Perhaps there is packing lube or some other crud in the flash channel?

With the vent liner removed, try pump-flushing the barrel with scalding hot soapy water followed by scalding hot clean water if not already done so. Then a good bore solvent and a brush.

Also, try "fishing" the flash channel with a pipe cleaner.
I've found on patent breeches sometimes the packing lube is encased into the flash channel and really takes some cleaning effort to clear it.

Perhaps your vent liner needs to be drilled out a bit as well?

If this does not work then it's off to DP to have them correct the issue.

:imo:

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

I agree with Tahquamenon, your patent breech must be obstructed with something, possibly packing grease. Try removing the flash hole liner and really flushing the bore as he suggested. I never had a problem with mine going off instantly, in fact that's the reason for the Manton breech in the first place, to get the flash closer to the powder.

You should be able to observe powder kernels in the flash hole when the gun is loaded, and the powder should fill the chamber, which, after all, is an extension of the barrel. It sounds as though you may have gotten a rifle in which the chamber was not completely opened up in the machining process. A gunsmith should be able to unbreech the gun and determine this right away.

Good luck, and let us know what you find out. That Pedersoli is a fine rifle, and once you get the problem figured out, it will give you good service.

Good luck.
Gene

 

[Zonie]

I haven't seen the gun your talking about, but I can say a .030 hole in the front of the breech plug is totally unacceptable.
It should be about .300 inch in diameter.
If this is a new gun, take it back to the dealer. If it's a used gun, do as others have suggested and have a gunsmith pull the breech and bore it out like it should have been made.

The only reason I'm not suggesting that you remove the breech plug is that the factorys often put them in so tight that removing them is a real chore.
If you feel up to it, go for it. When your drilling the hole out, just be dam sure you don't drill thru the back wall. :shocking:

 

G'day to you all,

The matter is now in hand. I drove down to Melbourne today (500 kms return) and presented the firearm to Graeme Forbes the importer. (I did make an appointment.)

He took one look and said "There's no bloody hole in the breech plug." I concurred but did admit there was a little hole.

He is pulling the plug, as he has the correct tools, and will either drill it out or get the factory to send a new one.

I was pleased with the quick response blokes as your comments confirmed my opinion before I made the long trek to Melbourne. I know I could have freighted it down but I found other things to do in town anyway.

Interesting question however might be "How was it fired to earn it's proof marks amongst other thoughts?"

Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob

 

[sherpadoug]

Often when drilling a large hole on an automated lathe, you drill a tiny lead hole first. Then the large hole can be drilled with less stress on the lathe. It sounds like your breech plug got the lead hole but not the final drilling.

Not as bizarre as it first seems.

 

[Zonie]

Glad to hear someone is going to fix your guns problems.

As for your question " "How was it fired to earn it's proof marks amongst other thoughts?" I can only guess.

The first thing I'll say is in todays manufacturing world, almost nothing is inspected 100%.
In the world of Quality Assurance (or Quality Control), they believe in statistics. This allows them to sample inspect the production parts and be reasonably assured that if for instance 5 parts out of 100 are good, then all 100 are good.

Having said that, I will also say I am sure that only a small sample of the total production run of Italian Guns are really Proof Tested, but all of them are stamped as having been proofed.

 

[bezoar]

Zonie, quality control is manure. In the 3 classes i did for a quality control degree, the supposedly professional people who taught the classes showed and encouraged us to pass bad parts if the order had to be filled that day

example: 1000 parts made, only 3 bad parts allowed as per quality control policy, parts must be shipped that afternoon, result: bad parts 4 thru 7 are passed thru the line to ensure order ships that afternoon.

your right that only a small number of parts are actually tested for non electrical items. my example could have been 150 parts inspected at random with only 3 bad parts acceptable.

As a result i switched programs.

 

[eldeguello]

I agree with Zonie :agree:
- the "semi-patent" hole in the face of the breechplug to the flash channel should be at least .3" in diameter. For large-caliber guns I cut mine 0.320" in diameter, to a depth of one diameter past the flash channel entrance into this "chamber". Guns thus breeched seem to fire very quickly, and are very strong in the breech area.

:thumbsup:

 

[44-henry]

It's sad, but true, I have worked as a quality control technican for the past two years and even though my company does inspect 100% (the nature of our products demand this) there is a lot of pressure to keep things moving and not stall production, if I had my say things would get rejected a lot more than they do. Unfortunately, that's life in the world of business. :shake:

 

[Rat]

I'm thinking that a good old flat breech will give the fastest ignition and greatest reliability. Just a thought.

Could the patent breech be cut back into a flat-breech? Or would that leave breech threads exposed in the barrel?

Rat