Flintlock Rifle Builders of Albany NY

[pintopete]

I am trying to learn about flintlock rifles built in the Albany NY area. More specifically I would like to learn what details would describe a rifle owned by an average citizen at the time. In talking with other flintlock enthusiasts, it has become apparent that it may be best to have the names of the builders in that area. Does anyone know of them? Thanks, Peter.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Albany NY was not a rifle culture area during the 18th century. Mostly fowlers for killing millions of ducks that used the rivers in that area.

 

[rich pierce]

In the late flint and percussion eras there were some very fine rifles built in NY state but as said above, that area has no known rifle builders in the 1700's as far as I have ever heard. Just to the east, in Massachusetts, there were some rifles made in the Federal period, and of course, to the southwest, Philly and west of there, rifles were as thick as hair on a dog.

Average man's gun in the Albany NY area in the 1700's was definitely a fowler or old militia gun or musket.

The Hudson Valley fowlers were probably not super-common because of additional cost. There were probably a lot of old Dutch trade guns around Albany that just got used up.

 

[JV Puleo]

There is an article about a NY flint rifle in the last issue of Man at Arms...I didn't read it carefully so beyond that I've little to add...there is also the new five volume history of the New York gun trade which will have whatever information there is if its to be found anywhere. Its expensive but amazingly complete and the result of many years work.

Joe Puleo

 

[pintopete]

I understand that most think that rifles were not produced in that area. I have spoken with folks who are certain that there were in fact flintlock rifles produced in and around Albany. Naturally the fowlers were more common. The curator of Fort Ticonderoga invited me to come look at these rifles in his collection. He did not recall the details, but advised me not to believe that there were not a significant number made. It is quite a trip. I guess I should schedule it and perhaps then I can learn more. Thanks, Peter.

 

[rich pierce]

Peter, I have not been to Ticonderoga since the 1970's but would love to know anything you find out about flintlock rifles from the Mohawk valley from the Revolutionary War period or earlier. I grew up there and have ancestors who were gunsmiths there. I don't have documentation as to whether they scratch-built guns or mostly did repairs, as they did blacksmithing and general metal repair work too.

 

[Vanderpool]

I had an ancestor, Wynant Geritse, who lived on Pearl Street across from old Fort Orange from about 1647 to around 1660. He owned a sawmill up near Troy, on Wynant's Kill (named for him). He was listed in some court records as being a "gunstocker". Now whether he obtained separate parts and assembled them on his stock to build a rifle/fowler, or if he stocked guns for a gunsmith in the area, I have no knowledge. But evidently there was some gunmaking being done in the area. After the British took over, he sold out his sawmill and moved to Manhattan Island and took the last name "Van de Poel" (now Vanderpool).

 

[Okwaho]

Joe, I saw your comment on this new 5 vol. set on New York guns and wondered as to the author and title. Can you post that info?

As to New York State gunsmiths, the original post didn't elaborate as to any particular time frame. You posted some time ago about Bill Guthman's position that there were practically no rifles made in New England {which included New York}until after the revolution a position with which I would concur.Peter posted that the Ft.Ti curator stated that there were rifles made in New York and apparently the Albany area in particular.

One cannot discuss early New England guns without mentioning the infamous faker named Teff who worked for a dealer in Boston. While Teff did most of his faking on fowlers,he was also known to have added rifling{for the first few inches of a barrel}to New England smoothbores so as create the illusion of early rifles.These guns as well as other guns are now beginning to surface and as a result New England guns have been tainted for some time. Merrill Lindsay comments on Teff and his work but shows a gun which in my opinion may well be the product of Teff's enhancement of an otherwise correct gun.

I do not doubt rifles being produced in New York as well as New England in general but I too question any rifles made before the Revolution there other the occasional abberation.A family here has a flintlock rifle signed "E.Fay Albany N Y" It is a percussion and I don't recall whether or not it is a conversion to perc.I will be at Ft. Ti this year and will try to see what rifles are there and how early.
Tom Patton

 

[JV Puleo]

I'm at home and the book is in the office so I'll try to copy the information when I'm in there this week end. The editor/publisher is Tom Rowe. I got this address from the review of another book so I don't know how up-to-date it is:
Rowe Publications, 295 E. Lake Breeze Pk., Rochester, NY 14622.
It is really an excellent book but, of course, the bulk of it deals with the percussion and cartridge eras.
I'm in agreement that there may not have been any New York or NE rifles prior to the Revolution though I hesitate to use the work "any" since, as we all know, just abut anything is possible. If there weren't, it was because there was no popular demand for them. Certainly the mechanics of both areas were capable of making them and northwestern New York was certainly enough of a "frontier" area to have supported their use so I'd be very surprised if a few didn't migrate into the neighborhood early on.
And...like the NE makers, very few people have taken an interest in this subject and thus there has been very little research done, nothing like the kind of work done on the Pennsylvania rifle where we seem to be able to tell what day of the week a particular rifle was made. There is probably a great deal yet to be learned about the subject.

The dealer you're thinking of was Kimball...Teft worked for him and mostly marked the names of known makers on otherwise unmarked but original guns. The late Bill Renwick was so disturbed by having been taken by Kimball he gave up collecting Ameerican guns altogether to concentrate on european ones...though it should be noted he wouldn't buy anything that wasn't signed, no matter how nice it was.

Please take the Lindsey book with a huge grain of salt...it has all sorts of problems, some of which I'm privy to but which probably shouldn't be discussed in an open forum. I was recently offered what I believe is one of the Kimball/Teft fakes...a nice, very slim fowler that appeared (at the muzzle) to be rifled and marked with the name of Jeremiah Smith...a maker Kimball believed to have worked around the time of the Revolution. I passed on it and when it was brought to me later in the day by another potential buyer for an opinion, I did my best to discourage him without making a definate statement that I could not substantiate regardless of my opinions.
Now, Jeremiah Smith came from the town I live in. My best friend in High School lived in his house as his parents still do who are also friends. Needless to say, he's of great interest to me. The late Bill Achtermeier, in his book on Rhode Island Arms Makers, tracked down a great deal of information on him and the result is that there isn't a shread of evidence he was a gunmaker...to the contrary, his home and his successful business interests suggest completely otherwise. His son was a gunmaker of sorts, albeit around 1800-1840, and the legend about the father is based solely on a supposition by the late Charles Cook that if the son was a gunmaker, the father must have been. Neither Kimball or Teft knew any of this so the "fake" is simply so implausable as to be laughable...except that some folks will believe what they want...the evidence be d..ned

Joe P

 

[JV Puleo]

The title of the book is "The New York State Firearms Trade" by H.J. Swinney, edited and compiled by Tom Rowe. (Mr. Swinney apparently died before his extensive notes could be made into a book.) ISBN is 0-9797608-8-4, Published by Rowe Publications, (585) 266-1710
I looked through it and there definately are NY flint rifles although they do tend to post-date the Revolution and nearly all have been converted to percussion. Interestingly, Mr. Swinney contends that NY gunmakers almost exclusively made rifles as shotguns/fowlers etc were more cheaply imported from Britain. Needless to say, the vast majority of the stuff is traditional NY half stock hunting & target rifles. Since its indexed by maker I wasn't able to find more than a handful of so-called "NY Long Rifles" (the authors' term) but he describes them as being plainer than Pennsylvania rifles, using nearly always locks and barrels bought from specialty suppliers. Mounts etc were also probably bought commercially although he was unable to identify any of them with certainty. Its almost the same scenario as the New England Rifle.

Joe Puleo

 

[pintopete]

I looked in Flayderman's Guide 4th Edition. On page 543 they talk about New England "Kentucky" flintlock rifles. These are not club guns or fowlers, but rather a unique rifle that ocurred in the late 18th and early 19th century. It does not mention barrel length or caliber. I can't tell from the pictures if they have round or octagon barrels. It is short, but an interesting read. Thanks, Peter.

 

[JV Puleo]

That short essay by Norm is about the only thing that has been published on the subject, aside from an article in Man at Arms about 20 years ago and Lindsay's "New England Gun" ... a book with lots of problems. We had a good discussion about them on this site a month or two ago and rather than repeat it here i'll suggest you search for the thread on "Welcome Mathewson".

Joe Puleo

 

[wallgunner]

I live not all that far from Albany. Most people believe that there were no rifles uphere, or made here. I've looked, but have found nothing that says a riflesmith worked in the Albany. I know all the guys up at Ti, go there pretty often, and have never heard them say they have a rifle from NY from the 18th century. I'm not saying I don't belive you, cause if they said it, it's probably true. It just gives me another reason to go to the Pell Center (like I need another).
Supposedly Sir William Johnson imported several riflesmiths from Penn in 1768 and brought them to Esopus(Kingston), Canojaharie, Schenectady, and Johnstown (Dillin, The Kentucky rifle). Kingston was the Capital at the time, Schendectady was a growing town, always important militarily and for going West, and Johnstown and Canajaharie were frontier settlements. As to what the rifles might have looked like, is pure specualtion. I'd assume they'd make what you asked for. Johnson, always trying to make a buck would have sold rifles to the public, not just for trade, so I think it very possible that rifles were used in NY before the Revolution. It's one of those debates that will go on forever. The Dutch made rifles as well, so it was in there abilities to build one. It might not have the architecture of an American rifle, but a rifle none the less. Keep us posted as to what you find, might be a neat project to build one next winter.

 

[wallgunner]

Albany NY was not a rifle culture area during the 18th century. Mostly fowlers for killing millions of ducks that used the rivers in that area.

Mike,
What exactly is a rifle culture? Albany was a small city surrounded by wilderness. The people in Albany might not have needed rifles, but the people in Albany could make a large profit by selling rifles to the rest of the inhabitants. There was still plenty of game in this area in the 18th century, the whole Mohawk, Champlain Valleys were for the most parts farms and endless woods. Parts of New York were just as wild as the frontiers of Virginia, Penn, Carolinas. New York had plenty of frontier society, plenty of game and woods. Sounds like a perfect place for a rifle! By the Revolution, most people think of New York as a settled colony with no frontiers, but thats far from the truth. Their are still parts of the Adirondacks that have not been trampled by man in a long time.
Don't take my question as being argumentative or picky, just wanted to clear it up what in your minds eye was a rifle culture.

 

[Okwaho]

Albany NY was not a rifle culture area during the 18th century. Mostly fowlers for killing millions of ducks that used the rivers in that area.

I agree with Mike here and I recall a post by Joe Puleo citing a talk by the late Bill Guthman,certainly one of the best researchers known, to the effect that rifles were virtually unknown in New England prior to the Revolution and that their post Revolutionary production was tied to militia needs.

George Shumway in "Rifles of Colonial America",Vol.II illustrates two rifles. One {RCA 141} is a possible attribution to New England or New York and the other {RCA 143} is signed by Thomas Earle of Leicester, Mass. No.141 could possibly date to the pre Revolutionary period or later but is difficult candidate for accurate attribution.The latter gun by Earle is of English styling and probably dates to the 1780's or 1790's {Shumway-P.612}. Earle died in 1819 and the gun appears to have been made in the late 18th or very early 19th century.

I recall a rifle which I either owned or handled some 30 odd years ago. It was a full stock rifle either original percussion or a conversion from flint.It was signed "E FAY ALBANY" and possibly "N Y". It had a relatively short barrel but a box with the side plates and head being all one piece of brass with lid in the proper place. What was odd was that the box,while unengraved and without piercings as I recall, was very close in outline to the George Eister rifles illustrated by Joe Kindig Jr. "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age"PP.300-303.

In "Early American Gunsmiths 1650-1850" by Henry J.Kaufman on P.28 there appears: "Fay,Edward Sign of the Kentucky Hunter 7 Beaver Street Albany,New York
Childs Albany Directory and City Register 1831-32

In an earlier post I mentioned a man named "Teff" who did some work for Kimball Arms in Boston and who knows who[url] else.In[/url] "the New England Gun" by Merrill Lindsay, a book upon which I prefer not to rely, lindsay on p.viii refers to "Kimball Arms and forger-Teff". Unfortunately on PP.38-39 he illustrates and describes a gun {No. 12} which may well be a product of Teff.One of Teff's methods was to file in pseudo rifling for about 6-8" from the muzzle on otherwise authentic New England fowlers and the guns then sold as "rifles"One should remember this in a serious discussion of "early New England rifles"
Tom Patton

 

[rich pierce]

In reply to Wallgunner, regarding "Rifle Culture" in upstate NY.
I'm originally from the Mohawk Valley, having roots there since the 1600's. I plan to return when I retire and let my bones rest in the land of my ancestors. One of my ancestors, Myndert Wemple, spent a winter among the Seneca under the direction of Sir William Johnson, to repair their firearms, pots, axes and other metal tools. He and Dow Fonda were both listed as gunsmiths from time to time. I tell you this just to emphasize I have been particularly interested in finding Mohawk Valley rifles from before the federal period but there is no strong evidence they were made there during or before the Revolutionary War. There are large collections of engraved powder horns from that period, many of them drawn by another relative, Robert M. Hartley, whose drawings are found in the St. Johnsville library museum downstairs. There are many a musket and fowler and fusil that remain from the early days. But unlike just a couple hundred miles away, down the Susquehana and into Pennsylvania, we simply do not find flintlock rifles in attics and barns and family collections in upstate NY. We do not know why this is so, but that does not alter the facts. I hoped/imagined that some of the Palatines would have brought the "rifle culture" with them and made rifles here, but again, no evidence of that. Instead, we find that the main class of documentable upstate NY guns from 1740 through the Revolutionary War period were Hudson Valley fowlers. They do not find those in the Lehigh valley, and we do not find rifles of that period in the Mohawk or Hudson valleys. More's the pity.

If you do not have the Muzzle Blasts article by Shumway depicting the Oswego rifle and are interested in that (could be 1770-1790), let me know offline.

 

[Bill Muench]

I am trying to learn about flintlock rifles built in the Albany NY area. More specifically I would like to learn what details would describe a rifle owned by an average citizen at the time. In talking with other flintlock enthusiasts, it has become apparent that it may be best to have the names of the builders in that area. Does anyone know of them? Thanks, Peter.

Contact Charlie Norton Saratoga Springs NY gun smith

 

[Buckskinquin]

I live not all that far from Albany. Most people believe that there were no rifles uphere, or made here. I've looked, but have found nothing that says a riflesmith worked in the Albany. I know all the guys up at Ti, go there pretty often, and have never heard them say they have a rifle from NY from the 18th century. I'm not saying I don't belive you, cause if they said it, it's probably true. It just gives me another reason to go to the Pell Center (like I need another).
Supposedly Sir William Johnson imported several riflesmiths from Penn in 1768 and brought them to Esopus(Kingston), Canojaharie, Schenectady, and Johnstown (Dillin, The Kentucky rifle). Kingston was the Capital at the time, Schendectady was a growing town, always important militarily and for going West, and Johnstown and Canajaharie were frontier settlements. As to what the rifles might have looked like, is pure specualtion. I'd assume they'd make what you asked for. Johnson, always trying to make a buck would have sold rifles to the public, not just for trade, so I think it very possible that rifles were used in NY before the Revolution. It's one of those debates that will go on forever. The Dutch made rifles as well, so it was in there abilities to build one. It might not have the architecture of an American rifle, but a rifle none the less. Keep us posted as to what you find, might be a neat project to build one next winter.

There was a gunsmith in Troy, NY, NE of Albany with a very good reputation. Can’t recall his name, but I’ve seen Troy, NY on many rifles in the north and south.

 

[godutch]

A couple of 'NY'rifles. 250 yrs. too late. One English flavored, one Dutch. Flight of fancy on my part.