Flintlock Snobbery

[Enfield58]

I got into the blackpowder hobby in college when I didn't have a lot of money. A friend showed me his 1858 Remington and I got one just like it.

I still have it and have shot it since 1979. Anyway, with the easy availability of lead, powder and caps, I discovered that it was cheaper to shoot my 1858 Remington than the .22LR pistol and just as much fun.

I have some really expensive muzzle loaders and some real cheap ones. It is also pretty remarkable that some of the inexpensive guns shoot as good as the expensive ones.

It also burns me up when I see people looking down on another person's equipment, regardless of the hobby, when they cannot afford something more expensive.

Sometimes, a person has to make do with whatever resources he or she has. That's a person that I can really admire.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Hoppings post No.142. They have but we can still find Real Blacks Floor Stone this side of the water..OLD DOG..

 

[Flinty Scot]

In the heyday of these guns, a plain gun that shot well was probably valued more highly than all the decorations. However, those flourishes were added to solid, accurate bases and craftsmanship=artistry.

Seems to me that today, in our culture generally, more credit is given to a fancy exterior than to solid function. Luckily, in our little corner of it, the gorgeous exterior typically has an exceptional core.

Let the purists-for-purity sake have their corner of it. If what I'm carrying pleases me and can do what I ask of it (even if Iu often can't), I'll be the one behind the Cheshire Cat grin.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Personal enjoyment and satisfaction aside, it is interesting and noteworthy that the percussion system almost completely replaced the flintlock in the entire world’s military and civilian arms in only a few decades.

It seems all the world’s major militaries and most civilian gunmakers were eager to abandon the flintlock system. How, in gods name, did all of this happen if their weren’t merits to the percussion system?

Back then, people used muzzleloaders “for real”. They weren’t weekend play things for old retired guys. They were the means to provide food for the family, personal protection, and were weapons of war. When the innovation of the percussion cap came about, its benefits MUST have been observed and respected otherwise we wouldn’t have tons of percussion conversions of earlier flintlock rifles and muskets (both civilian and military) or that after about 1840, virtually ALL NEW GUNS IN THE WORLD were not using flintlocks, they were using caplocks.

Again, people back then new muzzleloaders and used them for deadly serious purposes. I am all for flintlocks nowadays and they are quaint and dynamic, fascinating and romantic. BUT some folks just seem to think they are mechanically superior to caplocks and I just do not think this is true.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a percussion rifle or the people that shoot them. I’ll bet if some flintlock snobs went back in a time machine to say 1850 and repeated some of the reasons they think flintlocks are so superior to the old gunsmiths they would have laughed in their face and then probably offered them a box of old, obsolete flintlock parts for cheap.

Then we’ll here “well flintlocks were used for 300 years, and caplocks only about 40”. The bow and arrow had been used for about 60,000 years before the first flintlock weapon was ever built. So then, wouldn’t that make the bow and arrow superior? It’s been used FAR longer of course!

Again, flintlocks are FUN and really nifty. But yes, I’ve personally experienced snobbery against caplocks too and agree it can be annoying for sure. I can think of just as many comebacks in support of caplocks to counter the silly arguments and positions of flintlock “purists” (whatever that means). Some flintlock elitists only serve to disenfranchise new shooters to the hobby and further reinforce the stereotype of crotchety eccentric that is doing this sport absolutely no favors to attract new, younger members.

A good percussion Hawken or Ohio rifle is every bit as interesting and beautiful as a flintlock. They’ve brought me much joy and I love a good caplock as much as any flintlock I’ve ever fired. They have just as much “soul” as a flintlock and are an important part of muzzleloading history.

I like ‘em just fine, thanks.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Yep. And isn't hard to spend $600-700 to build a historically correct gun from a parts kit, instead of $300-700 on a commercial gun that isn't correct.

(This line was edited out as Zonie probably would have considered it a personal attack)

HINT - The last few years of hunting with commercial black powder traditional guns has resulted in ZERO complaints from the deer about being killed by said gun. Not a single one of them demanded I use a Hypocriticaly Correct firearm to kill them with. Nor have I heard a single paper target or steel swinger complain either.
Very few of the members here have the facilities and even fewer have refined skills to allow them to build their own guns.
And as we all have observed, even a Kibler kit goes for well over a grand, and a finished one runs 2g or better. I frequently see custom built guns here for sale at 3K and up. I would love to have one myself, but I won't be building one and on SSI I won't be buying anything that expensive either.
Without readily available commercial black powder guns, this forum would not exist. I'm putting my money on at least 85-90% of the members here DO NOT own custom high dollar value guns, self assembled or otherwise.

 

[Carbon 6]

Without readily available commercial black powder guns, this forum would not exist. I'm putting my money on at least 85-90% of the members here DO NOT own custom high dollar value guns, self assembled or otherwise.

True, but when I'm behind the trigger of El cheapo, in my mind it s a $3000 gun.

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

I just love snobs.
HINT - The last few years of hunting with commercial black powder traditional guns has resulted in ZERO complaints from the deer about being killed by said gun. Not a single one of them demanded I use a Hypocriticaly Correct firearm to kill them with. Nor have I heard a single paper target or steel swinger complain either.
Very few of the members here have the facilities and even fewer have refined skills to allow them to build their own guns.
And as we all have observed, even a Kibler kit goes for well over a grand, and a finished one runs 2g or better. I frequently see custom built guns here for sale at 3K and up. I would love to have one myself, but I won't be building one and on SSI I won't be buying anything that expensive either.
Without readily available commercial black powder guns, this forum would not exist. I'm putting my money on at least 85-90% of the members here DO NOT own custom high dollar value guns, self assembled or otherwise.

I'm NOT a snob. But I do detest hyperbole. $1050 is not "well over a grand."

TVM sells a completed Natchez po Boy for $999.

I shot a $50 CVA percussion (which was stolen) and a $50 CVA flintlock for literally decades.

Now that the cheapest kit gun is $300, I find it a lot easier to justify $500 for a parts collection from MBS or $600 for a kit from Jack at TVM.

No snobbery here.

 

[Bob McBride]

Many who want to shoot traditional muzzleloaders simply don't have the resources to spend $500 + initially on a firearm to get into the sport. Then there are the other items that go with it. Granted many can be made or found cheaply but for the pilgrim that may seem daunting. Often someone gets that looked down on capper or flinter and finds it shoot really well. Now a fancy period correct gun would be fun, but if the old cheapie is bringing home the bacon or winning some matches it is hard to take the jump to a new one.

Very true. I remember I scrimped and saved for a year to get my first nice gun. A shootable P53. My dad, who never missed a hunt and could’ve afforded most anything, was super happy with his old TC Hawken and the free pouch he got when he bought it. He usually takes more game than me, regularly out shoots me and my Mike Brooks or whatever. It’s what floats your boat, or what you can manage, and what you do with it that counts.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I'm NOT a snob. But I do detest hyperbole. $1050 is not "well over a grand."

TVM sells a completed Natchez po Boy for $999.

I shot a $50 CVA percussion (which was stolen) and a $50 CVA flintlock for literally decades.

Now that the cheapest kit gun is $300, I find it a lot easier to justify $500 for a parts collection from MBS or $600 for a kit from Jack at TVM.

No snobbery here.

Does your 1050 include the finishing supplies?
How much does browning blueing cost?
How much does it cost for wood finishing supplies? Metal finishing is very chemically oriented.
How much does sandpaper, files, rasps, and other tools cost? Got a work bench with soft jaw vice available? If you do, then I am happy for you.
A very limited number of black powder shooters have shops and tools available. It really is quite out of reach for many\most to acquire the means and tools\equipment to build. I was not able to do that until the kids were independant and especially no longer driving on my insurance. And even now I have to watch the pennies and be VERY selective about what I buy and trade for to acquire equipment.
How many of those tools and especially chemicals can an apartment dweller get into an apartment without being evicted?

 

[Bob McBride]

Personal enjoyment and satisfaction aside, it is interesting and noteworthy that the percussion system almost completely replaced the flintlock in the entire world’s military and civilian arms in only a few decades.

It seems all the world’s major militaries and most civilian gunmakers were eager to abandon the flintlock system. How, in gods name, did all of this happen if their weren’t merits to the percussion system?

Back then, people used muzzleloaders “for real”. They weren’t weekend play things for old retired guys. They were the means to provide food for the family, personal protection, and were weapons of war. When the innovation of the percussion cap came about, its benefits MUST have been observed and respected otherwise we wouldn’t have tons of percussion conversions of earlier flintlock rifles and muskets (both civilian and military) or that after about 1840, virtually ALL NEW GUNS IN THE WORLD were not using flintlocks, they were using caplocks.

Again, people back then new muzzleloaders and used them for deadly serious purposes. I am all for flintlocks nowadays and they are quaint and dynamic, fascinating and romantic. BUT some folks just seem to think they are mechanically superior to caplocks and I just do not think this is true.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a percussion rifle or the people that shoot them. I’ll bet if some flintlock snobs went back in a time machine to say 1850 and repeated some of the reasons they think flintlocks are so superior to the old gunsmiths they would have laughed in their face and then probably offered them a box of old, obsolete flintlock parts for cheap.

Then we’ll here “well flintlocks were used for 300 years, and caplocks only about 40”. The bow and arrow had been used for about 60,000 years before the first flintlock weapon was ever built. So then, wouldn’t that make the bow and arrow superior? It’s been used FAR longer of course!

Again, flintlocks are FUN and really nifty. But yes, I’ve personally experienced snobbery against caplocks too and agree it can be annoying for sure. I can think of just as many comebacks in support of caplocks to counter the silly arguments and positions of flintlock “purists” (whatever that means). Some flintlock elitists only serve to disenfranchise new shooters to the hobby and further reinforce the stereotype of crotchety eccentric that is doing this sport absolutely no favors to attract new, younger members.

A good percussion Hawken or Ohio rifle is every bit as interesting and beautiful as a flintlock. They’ve brought me much joy and I love a good caplock as much as any flintlock I’ve ever fired. They have just as much “soul” as a flintlock and are an important part of muzzleloading history.

I like ‘em just fine, thanks.

Nicely argued Smoke. Most of my traditional firearms are flintlocks but I do own and enjoy caplocks just as much. I’m drawn to flintlocks as I can knap my own flints (old NA village on one of my pastures.) so yea, it’s the historical romance of the thing to a large degree. That being said, my first love was the Civil War, and I’ll bust a cap real quick when I get in the mood.... which is pretty often.

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

Does your 1050 include the finishing supplies?
How much does browning blueing cost?
How much does it cost for wood finishing supplies? Metal finishing is very chemically oriented.
How much does sandpaper, files, rasps, and other tools cost? Got a work bench with soft jaw vice available? If you do, then I am happy for you.
A very limited number of black powder shooters have shops and tools available. It really is quite out of reach for many\most to acquire the means and tools\equipment to build. I was not able to do that until the kids were independant and especially no longer driving on my insurance. And even now I have to watch the pennies and be VERY selective about what I buy and trade for to acquire equipment.
How many of those tools and especially chemicals can an apartment dweller get into an apartment without being evicted?

None of those things are "have to haves." They are "want to haves" for spoiled, bratty Americans who want things instantly, their way. I have traveled to places where they build guns in a frickin' cave, with a home made file and a scraper.

Every single thing you mention can be done on the cheap; and the internet means that anyone can research how to do them that way. Crap, people cook Meth in their living room and get away with it; cold bluing a barrel is nothing compared to that.

Again, I have nothing against folks who shoot commercial guns, especially if they are clever and get them cheaply.

If you'd like help on how to affordably build a historically accurate rifle, I recommend using Google. The information is out there. Otherwise, please give it a rest.

 

[Griz44Mag]

If you'd like help on how to affordably build a historically accurate rifle, I recommend using Google. The information is out there. Otherwise, please give it a rest.

Guess you didn't get it..... I don't give a rip about Hipocritically Correct.
Period correct is a traditional gun, traditionally 95+% of the guns used by our forefathers did not have all the fancy frills and super high end finishes that are considered "correct" by that crowd. They were work guns. Many of them were patched, repaired, fitted with parts from several eras and kept going to do the job they were made for. They did not care if the lock had a historically incorrect round end or a lock screw with 8 instead of 9 threads or if the painted over repaired stock was finished in barn paint instead of triple boiled linseed.
Don't look down your nose at people who don't do things your way or have things that would meet with your approval.

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

Guess you didn't get it..... I don't give a rip about Hipocritically Correct.
Period correct is a traditional gun, traditionally 95+% of the guns used by our forefathers did not have all the fancy frills and super high end finishes that are considered "correct" by that crowd. They were work guns. Many of them were patched, repaired, fitted with parts from several eras and kept going to do the job they were made for. They did not care if the lock had a historically incorrect round end or a lock screw with 8 instead of 9 threads or if the painted over repaired stock was finished in barn paint instead of triple boiled linseed.
Don't look down your nose at people who don't do things your way or have things that would meet with your approval.

I have no idea where you came to the conclusions that I look down my nose at people, in any way.

In fact, the thread is about why people who shoot flintlocks instead of other ignition systems and look down at people who shoot those other ignition system, which has nothing to do with me. I have a cap and ball revolver, as well as a modern rifle and a pistol. Nothing fancy.

I only talk about my choices, or the abstract concept of value.

If I build a historically accurate reproduction from parts, I not only can use it for re-enactments, I can hunt with it. This means I only have to pay for one gun. That, to me, is value.

And I'm only out marginally more than buying a new, commercially built Traditions, and much less than a new, commercially built Pedersoli, much less something higher end. I will consume approximately $20 worth of expendables building it, most of which I already own.

Ironically, the gun I'm building is a Tennessee iron mounted barn rifle, which is the kind of thing you are talking about. My main concern is that it turns out good. Secondarily, it would be nice if it were historically accurate, and that bit costs nothing except a bit of research and reading.

I apologize if I've offended you somehow. I offer information, not judgment.

 

[Eterry]

A shop full of expensive power tools and equipment maybe nice, but it certainly isn't necessary.
Have a cheap harbor freight vise? No problem, just make a set of padded blocks out of scrap lumber and leather.
I know Nicholson files are the best, I have 1, bought used at a yard sale. Most mine are cheap files picked up at estate sales and flea markets.
Also have one set of nice chisels, the rest came from HF.

I recall the article from Muzzle Blast where the guy traveled by canoe to a shoot with a "lock, stock and barrel" and a few tools and scraps of metal.
In 3 days he had a shootable Fowler... he hit the target with his 1st shot, IIRC.

Remember, this thread started off as a humorous look at Flintlock shooters... let's all count to 100 and take a few deep breaths.

 

[Carbon 6]

Remember, this thread started off as a humorous look at Flintlock shooters...

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Eterry,That sounds as it were Rudyard..OLD DOG

 

[GREENSWLDE]

ETerry ,I very often count to 100 When the Flint Falls DEAD.and the Peasant keeps afloyin. In UK most of us old un's have always refered to Flinters as FUN GUNS. Let's keep it that way. We've been on a long learning curve from about 1950 odd to re learn what was forgotten to INTER CLAY SHOOTERS Breaking 48/49 ex 50 clays. It's still a lot of fun.. And mine occasionally goes bang and the B/L'ers (Banded Terminology) all have a good laugh.. OLDDOG..

 

[Grenadier1758]

Flint lock shooting is an art form. It takes special skill sets to get the flintlock to perform.

Percussion lock are the triumph of technology and engineering to produce a reliable good functioning firearm.

We enjoy our flintlocks to be sure. But I can't forget that I first started shooting percussion lock rifles because it was just a lot easier to get the affordable guns that I shot to be accurate.

Flintlock snobbery is a fun starting point for starting noncombative debates. To be absolutely truthful, there ultimately be no room for flintlock snobbery. Now traditional versus in-line...

 

[Pete G]

There also seems to be a lot of "reverse snobbery" directed towards those who prefer a correctly built piece.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Nicely argued Smoke. Most of my traditional firearms are flintlocks but I do own and enjoy caplocks just as much. I’m drawn to flintlocks as I can knap my own flints (old NA village on one of my pastures.) so yea, it’s the historical romance of the thing to a large degree. That being said, my first love was the Civil War, and I’ll bust a cap real quick when I get in the mood.... which is pretty often.

Thanks, Bob! I think people might like to see a Black Powder TV video about your caplocks sometime!