Flintlocks for grouse, is it a good idea?

[mikeoosting]

I've been considering getting a .32 flintlock for grouse and pheasant. This would be my first venture into gun ownership, I've only ever owned a bow before. It would also be my first real venture into small game hunting, but my dad loves going after grouse with his .410 shotgun and I'd like to join him.

The reason I want a flintlock is a little bit of legal complication we have here in Ontario, Canada. There are two classes of "Outdoors Cards" (which is a card verifying that you've taken a hunting safety course that permit you to buy hunting licenses) - H1 (all legal firearms, crossbows and bows) and H2 (no firearms).

I have an H2, and getting and H1 would involve me taking another, even longer safety course :td: Not to mention that up here, there's a lot of real particular laws about how you store firearms, ammo and how you transport them (and violations are punishable under the criminal code) :td: Since flintlocks (unlike percussion muzzleloaders) regardless of when they were made are classified as "antique firearms" you can own one without a license and can use it to hunt with a H2 outdoors card. Besides, I just downright like the guns.

Both my brothers and my friends have been saying, "Flintlocks are useless for small game, they take too long to fire and startle small game away".

Is this true? Is there anyone on here using a flintlock for gamebirds like grouse?

As for the gun itself, I'm looking into getting either a Pedersoli Kentucky .32 or a TVM Jaegar .32, depending on how much money I'm willing to spend. It's my understanding that both are good guns but that the TVM is absolutely top of the line.

 

[roundball]

I've been considering getting a .32 flintlock for grouse and pheasant.

Well, maybe I'm not fully understanding, but the .32cal is a very tiny small game rifle shooting a single tiny lead ball, often used as a squirrel gun, shooting stationary targets such as a squirrel up on a stump, etc.

If you'll be going after grouse and pheasants, I'm pretty sure most of those shots would be flushed / flying birds and you'd want a shotgun for that.
And with ML's not being quite as efficient as modern shotguns & shotshells, IMO, you'll probably need something larger than a .410...I'd suggest at least a .20ga, possibly a .12ga.

And yes, TVM can build an excellent Flintlock of your choosing for you...sounds like an enjoyable journey you have ahead of you.
:thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I agree that it's a question of bore rather than ignition system. You simply won't be using a rifled 32 cal for pheasant and grouse if they're flying and a smoothbore 32 with shot will greatly restrict your range and effectiveness.

I have a short model Brown Bess flintlock (roughly an 11 gauge) which I've used a few times with shot to wingshoot ptarmigan. Due to it's balance and pointing qualities I found it as fast or faster to use than any modern 12 gauge I've used in the same fields. I've used both 20 and 12 gauge percussion model shotguns and find no advantage/disadvantage when comparing them to the flint Brown Bess, or for that matter, modern guns.

In your shoes I'd probably be happiest with something on the order of a 20 gauge trade gun.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yes. Flintlocks are excellent for ruffed grouse. Likely pheasants as well; though I've never had that honor. But I prefer the 16 bore and wouldn't go below 20 bore if I was hungry. A .32 smoothbore isn't going to pitch much shot, and potting a sitting grouse with a rifle is hardly sporting. If you can knock a raising grouse off with a .32 flintlock rifle you'd be quite the shooter, indeed.

 

[Vaino]

If you're intending to "ground swat" grouse and phesants, a .32 is sufficient. For wing shooting of these 2 birds, get a 12 ga. Does your father actually wing shoot w/ a .410?.... pheasants are tough birds for a .410. A flintlock of a suitable caliber should work fine.....Fred

 

[Flint311]

Absolutely! That would be a great grouse gun, in Ontario. The grouse here (US) flush before you see 'em sometimes, but I've hunted in Canada and got one with a rock one time (birds are the same, but act totally different). The local Anishnabe used a sling shot. As for your dad, a .410 would be fine, many use a .22 and head shots only. A .32 won't scare anymore game than anything else that goes "bang!".. Have fun! :thumbsup:

 

[mikeoosting]

20 gauge shotgun seems to be what most are recommending, I'll talk to my dad more about it and if I can get him past the fact that it's a "damned smokepole" maybe he might have some useful advice.

If you're intending to "ground swat" grouse and phesants, a .32 is sufficient. For wing shooting of these 2 birds, get a 12 ga. Does your father actually wing shoot w/ a .410?.... pheasants are tough birds for a .410. A flintlock of a suitable caliber should work fine.....Fred

I couldn't tell you whether or not he shot them on the ground or in flight, but, a .410 is the only thing he's ever used to hunt the birds (grouse and the occasional pheasant) and he's never complained about the gun. It's definitely a .410, I've fired it myself.

I never really thought about it, but he must be quite the shot if he uses that gun :shocked2:

 

[mikeoosting]

Absolutely! That would be a great grouse gun, in Ontario. The grouse here (US) flush before you see 'em sometimes, but I've hunted in Canada and got one with a rock one time. The local Anishnabe used a sling shot. As for your dad, a .410 would be fine, many use a .22 and head shots only. A .32 won't scare anymore game than anything else that goes "bang!".. Have fun! :thumbsup:

See, I didn't think it was abnormal to use a .410 or a small calibre rifle for grouse :grin:

 

[SgtSchutzen]

Sure you could use .32 flintlock rifle for birds if you don`t plan on wingshooting them. I`d still consider a smoothbore gun in around 20ga though. Especially for a first or only gun. It`ll be just awhole lot more versatile. You can use it with shot for small game, or round ball if you ever want to hunt bigger critters like deer or bear.

 

[mikeoosting]

Sure you could use .32 flintlock rifle for birds if you don`t plan on wingshooting them. I`d still consider a smoothbore gun in around 20ga though. Especially for a first or only gun. It`ll be just awhole lot more versatile. You can use it with shot for small game, or round ball if you ever want to hunt bigger critters like deer or bear.

Everyone seems to be recommending a 20ga - the fact that it's versatile is appealing, while I still prefer my bow for the big ones, it would give me an option which is always good.

Could anyone recommend a good 20ga flintlock? :grin:

 

[roundball]

Could anyone recommend a good 20ga flintlock?

Many choices...this one is a .62cal Early Virginia built by TVM...examples of versatility:

LOAD OF CHILLED #4 shot

Patched ball

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Both my brothers and my friends have been saying, "Flintlocks are useless for small game, they take too long to fire and startle small game away".

Yes all of the American and Canadian hunters starved to death when they could not find deer, bear, panther, or moose, because their flintlocks couldn't take small game, and thus North America was never settled until the caplock was invented :hmm: ..., oh wait, that's wrong isn't it. ?? :haha:

I think there is a huge amount of myth that has crept into the local thinking up around where you live. It may be a leftover from when the caplock was introduced, it may be a confusion over what folks call "small game"..., Selling points for caplocks were the more reliable ignition when in damp weather, and the "speed" of ignition compared to the flintlock..., of course we know there isn't that much of an advantage when both fire as designed, but again a "selling point" doesn't need to be accurate, it just has to convince the buyer to buy the product. :grin:

Alexander John Forsythe came up with the "scent bottle" ignition for his fowler as he was dissatisfied with the ignition of his flintlock fowler, when he went for ducks, or so the story goes. I think the guy either had a poorly built gun or lock, or was a poor shot..., I tend to think he may have been a poor shot though an avid bird hunter. He thought the "slow ignition" alerted the ducks, and they then dodged and he'd miss. :hmm: This then led to the pin ignition and then the percussion cap.

Now maybe your friends think that the sound of the lock will cause you to only get one of a group of grouse when you fire, and thus scare the remaining, living ones into flying away..., As for other small game, ah nope, squirrels and rabbits and lone sitting birds pretty much are in the pot.

I have friends that are quite happy with either a 28 gauge (.54 caliber) a 24 gauge (.58 caliber) or a 20 gauge (.62 caliber) fusil or flowler or tradegun. None have chokes, and they shoot shot at small game including birds on the wing/ They also are avid deer hunters and use the same guns with wadded round ball for deer.

Canada was famous for the coeur de bois who used smooth bore guns in those same gauges. Maybe you can convince your dad they are a good thing if you appeal to their use in Canadian history and tradition? I'd be happy with any of them, but if I was going mostly for grouse, then I'd probably go for the most shot, the 20 gauge.

LD

 

[mikeoosting]

Canada was famous for the coeur de bois who used smooth bore guns in those same gauges. Maybe you can convince your dad they are a good thing if you appeal to their use in Canadian history and tradition? I'd be happy with any of them, but if I was going mostly for grouse, then I'd probably go for the most shot, the 20 gauge.

:haha: that's québécois history not Canadian history! You'll find most anglo canucks aren't too fond of their francophone fellow countrymen, nor their history.

Actually, flintlocks are popular up here right now because it's the 200th anniversary of the war of 1812. The government's sponsoring a lot of reenactments and such. I might be able to work in the tradition argument :wink:

Many choices...this one is a .62cal Early Virginia built by TVM...examples of versatility

:thumbsup: nice shot, nice gun! Something I would definitely consider.

I was browsing around the internet to see if there were any quality double barrel smoothbore flintlocks, and the quality one out there seems to be a parts set from The Rifle Shoppe for a Joe Manton Double Fowler. http://therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_fowlers_locks/(570).htm

Not sure I'd trust myself to build a gun proper though :haha:

Hmm maybe I could take it to a gunsmith and have them assemble it? Oh, the choices! :grin:

 

[luieb45]

Honestly you should probably go through the safety classes because I guarentee you some day you'll want a center fire or rimfire rifle or shotgun of sorts because even though most around here "only" shoot muzzleloaders but I guarentee you most also like shooting their modern guns which do have a time and place in hunting. Secondly, you'll want a shotgun for bird huting and if you're thinking about getting a flint shotgun as your first shotgun and first experience with wingshooting you'll be biting off more than you can chew because a flintlock is tough shooting stationary targets let alone one that's flying. Once you've gained some experience shooting a modern shotgun then you can go back and get a muzzleloading one because you'll need the skills acquired with a center fire shotgun. You just can't go from crawling to running, you have to walk first if you catch what I'm saying.

 

[mikeoosting]

It's not as if I'm new to hunting, and it's not as if I'm new to using a gun.

I've never hunted with any gun before, that's true. But I don't think I'll settle for something "easy". I just downright like flintlock guns, and if it's a challenge and a skill I need to work on then there's just all the more reason for me to make that investment.

What's better, a gun I can buy and be good with, or a gun that I will get progressively better with over a long period of time? I'm a pretty patient guy, and I think a flintlock's what I want.

 

[fyrfyter43]

The way I look at it is that for hundreds of years, there were no centerfire guns to "learn with" before switching to a flintlock.

 

[Jason Lewis]

i've shot quite a few pheasants with a 20ga flintlock fowler. i generally use an 1.25OZ load of copper plated #4's over 80 grn of 2F swiss. they drop just as dead as a modern shotgun. the key is to practice on clay pigeons in the off season just like any other shotgun. in fact, i've never hunted pheasants with a modern gun i frankly enjoy muzzleloading shotguns much more rewarding.

 

[hanshi]

If they're on the ground a .32 flint is fine for game birds. I have a .62 (20ga) smoothbore from TVM and it does fine with shot and with ball it is a deer killing machine. A smoothbore is the most versatile gun you can get. Don't worry about percussion; it's a fad that will never catch on. Get a smoothie flintlock for fast ignition and reliability.

 

[Dave K]

I have 3 SxS flinters(16ga.,18ga.,20ga.) here and they are excellent hunters, for what I hunt, which is really only doves for wingshooting. I have used my perc. SxS 14ga. for turkey and doves also. All of these were great! A couple of years ago I built a 20ga. English Style fowler, using a 44" Colerain 20ga., cyl. bored barrel. The idea again was to have a gun for turkey and even whitetails. Though it works well and I really like it. If I had to do over again, I would have used a 16ga. barrel for the build. The reason is the outside of the barrel profile is the very same, at least from Colerain. So I would have a lighter barrel to swing on flying targets. Nothing AT ALL wrong with either a 20ga. or 16ga. but the weight difference may be wonderful along with the ability to shoot a little more lead.Even though some may have mentioned the slow to fire shooting of a flinter, since that is all I use, I am not aware of it as I am used to it and that is really all I know.

 

[BrownBear]

...the key is to practice on clay pigeons in the off season just like any other shotgun....

Boy, you said a mouthful there! :hatsoff:

My biggest "discovery" in wingshooting with a muzzleloader, whether flint or percussion, is the difference in "lock time" between those and a modern shotgun. Sure, ignition is fast with either once the hammer falls, but it just takes a lot longer in my experience to go from trigger pull to boom with the muzzleloader.

It's not a problem once you get used to it, and clay pigeons are the venue for that. But if you've shot a lot of modern shotguns you'll be instantly aware of the difference, even if it's only measured in microseconds.