"Follow through" when firing a Flintlocks

[hotsparks]

More or less the same conversation going in another post right now...not to repeat everything I said there, but after 45 years of shooting and instructing, especially pistols, I've noted even "experienced" shooters flinch when they squeeze the trigger on what they think is a loaded weapon, it's almost amusing watching a dry-fired pistol recoil until you realize you're being paid to overcome that subconsous reaction...but it is possible for the thinking part of the brain to convince the other part that "it ain't gonna hurt ya"...and basically until you can do that all the instruction in the world isn't going to make you a shooter.
About the "surprise"....especially in your personal weapon, unless you've done it yourself, or paid someone to "smooth" the trigger, almost all factory will have some kind of roughness or "tell-tail" in the pull....you may not be aware of it, but some part of your brain knows it there and feels it and think "okay...here it comes, big noise and recoil...battle stations...all tense!!" The mechanics of good target shooting are fairly easy and most people can grasp it...the techniques of shooting while hunting..or shooting PPC/IPSC are much more difficult to teach or learn..it may look like just pointing a weapon and jerking the trigger...but it's far from it...and follow thru is EVERYTHING when you have to fire 7 rounds in under 3 seconds to be competative...a real gentleman by the name of Mickey Fowler worked hard to teach me that...(at the same time managing 5 consecutive National Championships)

 

[roundball]

Perhaps because people tend to flinch more when shooting a flintlock, so it's more important to emphasize the follow-through? Just a guess.

If I remember correctly, back in the golden era of the flintlocks black powder was not as efficient as today's standards dictate, in my opinion the art of following through the shot was more important then because of the inconsistency of powder from batch to batch.

Longer barrels were employed to extract every last ounce of push from the earlier powder formulas, so holding on target was of great virtue. Today's powders are perfectly formulated and mixed for the most reliable ignition and performance.

MM, you, Claude and TG win the reading comprehension awards
:hatsoff:

 

[J.D.]

We're talking controlled flintlock muzzleloader shooting here, not semi-automatic rapid fire M16A2s.
:slap:

I'm not talking M16A2 either. We were shooting real rifles. I'm talking National Match M14s. :wink:

The same technique works when shooting moving targets with flint guns, when shooting timed events, and especially when firing volleys on command.

One rendezvous in this area used to have a rabbit silhouette that "jumped" out from behind a log to disappear behind another log, only a few feet away.
Anyone who held until surprised by the shot might as well not waste their time on a target that was visible for about a second.

Other timed events, such as loading to fire three shots, cutting 3 soft drink straws, while being timed by an hourglass egg timer set within the shooters vision, requires quick loading and shooting. I cut 2 of the straws, BTW. :wink:

These are only a coupla targets, shot in this area, that require quick shooting. Holding until the shot is a surprise will give a score of 0 in those types of matches. So yes, there is a place for quick shooting in the ML game.

 

[slowpokebr549]

I grew up wing shooting. I had a .28 gauge in my hands from the age of ten, following a pointer. When it came time for me to learn rifle shooting I was instructed in the suprise method of trigger control. But, muscle memory can't be untaught. When a shot at game comes around I almost always snap shoot. I am a mediocre paper puncher, but it is very seldom that I miss a shot in the field. I also very rarely even remember the shot. Follow through to me is something that you do leading a goose with your swing.I guess it is a good thing that I live and hunt in short range country. 100 yards is long shot to me.

 

[chuck-ia]

I try to practice follow through, I don't think it matters what you are shooting, I think it does matter how you are shooting though, off hand or off a bench. I think a person can get in the habit of lowering the gun too quick after the shot, ( offhand shooting) and looking to see where he hit. I would think shooting off a bench, followthrough might not be as hard. I shoot with a friend who I noticed does not follow through, I would consider him a top shooter, who knows? I think trigger pull is probably just as important as follow through, I try to keep the sites lined up while slowley pulling the trigger, I use simple single triggers, mine ended up with a little creep, kinda takes ya by surprize. I don't think I would shoot any better with a set trigger. flinch

 

[Zonie]

From time to time I see posts about practicing "follow through" with a Flintlock. I can only assume they must be referring to shooting older, maybe more crude, slower firing Flintlocks that have a lot of delay in the ignition sequence...with the intent of the practice being able to learn how to hold fairly steady on the target while waiting for the ignition to occur and get the ball out of the barrel.

But I also see the same suggestions being made with respect to shooting the typical Flintlock manufactured today, given that today's Flintlock quality produces virtually instantaneous ignition.

:hmm: :hmm:

Well, it's time for someone to admit that even brand new well made flintlocks with highly tuned locks, the finest flints and the most experienced Flintlock shooter occasionally have a hang fire or even a "Flash in the Pan" mis-fire.

Yes, I'm aware that roundballs TC Hawken Flintlocks always fire faster than a modern cartridge rifle but not everyone owns one of these.

IMO, all Flintlocks (except roundballs TC's) are fairly slow in firing as is evidenced by our own Mr. Larry Pletchers excellent studies and articles such as his MuzzleBlasts article "Pan/Vent Experiments" (March 2009).

For someone who is used to modern cartridge rifles which, from the release of the sear to the bullets exit from the barrel can be as fast as .005 seconds the .036+ seconds for a flintlock to fire can seem to take a long time.

It is these people who need to understand that the concept of "following thru" is more important when firing a flintlock than it is with a modern rifle.

Learning to follow thru to allow for the slight lag in firing that is typical of a flintlock will carry over to all shooting thus, if one learns to fire a flintlock and to maintain a long follow thru all of their shooting will improve.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Hey Zonie! My flintlocks are pretty fast too. Even with the slowest one, the ball leaves the muzzle before the flint hits the frizzen! 'Course it's still not quite as fast as a Thompson Center Hawken.... :stir:

 

[musketman]

Hey Zonie! My flintlocks are pretty fast too. Even with the slowest one, the ball leaves the muzzle before the flint hits the frizzen!

That's because you forgot to patch it again and the ball rolled out of the barrel while you twern't lookin'... :rotf:
(just funnin' ya Mr. Frizzen) :grin:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Does that mean it ain't as fast as I been thinkin' it was? I did note the velocity was a tad low and the range was very short!

 

[musketman]

Does that mean it ain't as fast as I been thinkin' it was? I did note the velocity was a tad low and the range was very short!

:rotf:

 

[Onojutta]

So yes, there is a place for quick shooting in the ML game.

I see your point, and agree. My advice on the shot bring a surprise was geared toward bench shooting where you are taking your time making the shot and have too much time to think about it. I will admit, at least in my experience, that bench shooting a long, deliberate shot can be a different thing than when shooting quickly at a moving target- such as shooting skeet with shotgun. I think the difference there is that when you are shooting rapidly at a moving target, it becomes a matter of going through well disciplined mechanics that you don't have time to think about. When I shoot moving targets with my shotgun, it is much the same as you described. Target is in the air, and you have fractions of a second to react. It's point and squeeze. For me, this is quite a different sequence of events than when I am set up on a bench, aware of each breath and have all the time in the world to concentrating on making that perfect shot. In this situation, I think most shooters will find they have more of a problem anticipating the kick than when shooting in a situation that requires instant reaction to a moving or time target. In a timed event, the clock may be your enemy but it may also be your ally by taking thought and anticipation out of the equation. On the contrary, in bench shooting time can be your worst enemy.

So I will concede that patiently increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun fires without anticipation may not be how most of us shoot in "rapid fire" situations, but I believe that in order to be successful in those situations to go through a series of mechanics by instinct without the time to think about every detail, you must first master the basics in order to develop that habitual consistency. This entails learning your form, the gun, the trigger, and knowing what to do when the gun does go boom. When I respond to these posts about the basics of shooting a flintlock, I try to give basic advice- assuming the context is in basic bench shooting and not advanced timed competition.

If we're talking about follow through in the context of after the shot and assuming you didn't flinch or pull the shot, the advice I was given when learning to shoot skeet and doves with shotgun was to follow the target as if painting over it with a brush. Fire the shot as the "brush" passes over the object, and follow through the shot by finishing the brush stroke past the target.

 

[cptleo1]

some folks do it like this

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGFU_8RnI4&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Ah, yes. The "stuff the muzzle into the dirt and drop the rifle" follow-through technique. I've seen it used by the ARVN troops in Vietnam many years ago. They could do it with their eyes closed! I've never seen it done with a flintlock before though. Might be worth a try... :rotf:

 

[bingo1952]

I want to know what they primed and loaded that thing with. Kinda sounded and looked like scraped match heads. :haha: Match heads will work as gunpowder sorta, I "experimented" with them when I was in my early teens. Sometimes I wonder how I ever reached adulthood. :youcrazy: :shocked2:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yup. I dimly recall an experiment with some match heads and some BBs in a length of pipe. We all survived... :haha:

 

[Dphar]

From time to time I see posts about practicing "follow through" with a Flintlock. I can only assume they must be referring to shooting older, maybe more crude, slower firing Flintlocks that have a lot of delay in the ignition sequence...with the intent of the practice being able to learn how to hold fairly steady on the target while waiting for the ignition to occur and get the ball out of the barrel.

But I also see the same suggestions being made with respect to shooting the typical Flintlock manufactured today, given that today's Flintlock quality produces virtually instantaneous ignition.

:hmm: :hmm:

There is a WIDE variety of ignition speeds in todays lock/vent designs. Most commercially made locks can be speeded up by tuning. As a matter of fact modern made locks are actually slower than the better made locks by Manton and others Circa 1800-1830. Its been tested.

I suggest that you look up Larry Pletchers stuff on actually *measuring* lock and vent speeds.
There is no "instantaneous" flintlock ignition and I suspect you know this since you post on sites where the testing is an ongoing discussion.
:hmm:

All are slower than a properly made percussion and these are all relatively slow compared to a "Martini" or many modern designs.

*All* of which require *follow through* for accurate shooting.

Dan