? for Leather workers

[Grimord]

When cleaning out my grandfathers attic I came across an old 12 ga Belgium shotgun and a hard leather shot flask (with shot in it). The flask leather is still good, I rubbed some mink oil into it, and it came out looking good, but the stitching seems to be dry rot and is coming apart. I would like to repair this old flask to be usable again. What is the best way to repair the stitching on this flask. It appears that it was originally stitched when the flask was "inside out", then it was inverted. Do I have to take the whole flask apart to do it that way, or is there some other repair I can make?

 

[Vomir le Chien]

Retire it and use it as and example and make a new one.

 

[bang]

Probably will have to take out stitching about an inch at at time and sew it as you go. Depending on how big the openning is you may be able to use long nosed hemostats to reach in to work the needle.
The leather would have to be very soft to be able to turn it inside out without damaging it.
If you can get enough thread inside you might be able to use or make a small crochet hook to pull the excess to the outside through the next hole. You can take an as small and long needle possible grind the eye to make an open fork. Use it to push the thread in with short lead so you don't have to push it all the way through. Pull it out and there will be the loose thread inside. Catch it from next hole with hook. Pull enough thread through to complete the stitching and repeat.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Retire it and use it as and example and make a new one.

A photo would be helpful, however I'm inclined to agree. If the flask is made of hard leather and was originally stitched in-side out, chances of repeating that process now without causing damage are pretty slim.

I made this one with the stitches on the outside.

 

[BrownBear]

Retire it and use it as and example and make a new one.

I have to agree. The only way to really repair that kind of stitching is to reverse it again, resew it, then reverse it back. That's a whole lot of flexing for old leather. Odds are that even though you rubbed it down with mink oil, it didn't get down into the stitching or all the way through the leather. It would be a shame to destroy it while trying to fix it. But you have a perfect pattern in your hands for fashioning a replacement.

I'll make a very long story very short, but a friend long ago was a renowned flint napper. A tribe approached him to make some giant blades they use for ceremonies. They were down to the last few, and no one in the tribe could make replacements. This is the point for you: They decided that his blades could be used in the ceremonies for all the passing back and forth while the ancient versions were kept on hand, but not handled. Seems kind of like the same opportunity for you to make and use a replacement while keeping the original as-is.

 

[Sinner]

Nice looking flask. I agree that you should cherish it as a keepsake.
Are the seams actually separating? Could you include a pic of that?

 

[Grimord]

Yes, the seams are separating. I would really like to repair and use this flask for sentimental reasons. Maybe I will just stitch a new seam on the outside like Tom a Hawk did, or should I go with a whip stitch?

 

[Rifleman1776]

That leather is most likely far drier and brittle than you realize. Retire, hang on wall. Try to make a replica to use.

 

[Artificer]

Yes, the seams are separating. I would really like to repair and use this flask for sentimental reasons. Maybe I will just stitch a new seam on the outside like Tom a Hawk did, or should I go with a whip stitch?

Since I didn't know my Maternal Grandfather, as he died when I was only about 9 months old from the Poison Gas the Huns used in WWI, I only knew my Paternal Grandfather. Since he and Grandma had to wait until they were older to have children, my first memories of him was when he was in his mid/late 60's. Even so, I formed a powerful bond with him before he passed, as I both resembled him very much physically and he had a lot to do with shaping my work ethic and personality. Many years later my Dad would watch me working and a tear would form in his eyes and he often told others it was just like watching his Dad work. When Grandpa passed, I wanted and got hand tools his Father and he had used in their lifetimes and the family sword. I only mention this to show how much I can understand and sympathize with you.

Without being able to examine it in hand, here are the things I suggest you consider:

1. The most important thing would be to preserve the leather and total shot pouch, in honor of your Grandfather, whether you could actually use it or not.

2. Is the condition of the leather good enough it can actually be repaired without further damaging it or harming it further? If it sat too many years without being regularly oiled as needed, it may and probably did dry rot the leather and that means the seams will most likely be affected/weakened the most. That may mean it may or may not be repaired, but only preserved.

3. Is the condition of the leather good enough that after being repaired, that you could actually use it after repair? IOW, it may be in good enough condition to repair, but not in good enough condition to use it - as shot puts a lot of stress on the sewed seams.

First it is very, very important with no pictures, to ask you whether the pouch stitching is seen from the outside like the one Tom A Hawk showed above? This kind of stitching is the easiest to repair and preserve, whether or not the leather is in good enough condition to use after the repair. So let's begin with your answer to that question.

Gus

 

[Sinner]

You could try to just use Barge cement to glue it together. It's pretty strong stuff, and you won't tear your leather, or have odd stitches showing.
Barge cement is a contact glue. You apply it to both surfaces and let it set for 15-20 minutes before pressing together. Be careful putting the surfaces together as you won't likely get them apart without tearing the leather. You can't reposition after putting them together.

 

[Grimord]

I believe the leather is in good condition. The flask was wrapped in a rag that has some remnants of oil on it so I guess it was wrapped to preserve it. The stitching is like i said in an earlier post. The seam was sewn when the flask was inside out, then the flask was inverted after sewing. My goal is to make the flask serviceable for use. The barge cement idea sounds good, but I question if it will stay together once shot is placed in the flask. I will try to take some pics of the flask, but I am a terrible photographer so don't hold your breath.
I will ponder the ideas suggested, and decide what to do after another intensive investigation of the flask's condition. thanks all for your suggestions.

 

[BrownBear]

The last step for good adherence with Barge is lots of pressure on the joint for about 24 hours while it cures. Working against you, Barge doesn't like to adhere well to oiled leather. I'd be tempted to add a baste or two with thread to the top of the seam for extra support. You can do that without inverting the leather.

 

[Sinner]

The last step for good adherence with Barge is lots of pressure on the joint for about 24 hours while it cures. Working against you, Barge doesn't like to adhere well to oiled leather. I'd be tempted to add a baste or two with thread to the top of the seam for extra support. You can do that without inverting the leather.

That's right. I'm glad you mentioned the oiled leather.

 

[Artificer]

I believe the leather is in good condition. The flask was wrapped in a rag that has some remnants of oil on it so I guess it was wrapped to preserve it. The stitching is like i said in an earlier post. The seam was sewn when the flask was inside out, then the flask was inverted after sewing. My goal is to make the flask serviceable for use. The barge cement idea sounds good, but I question if it will stay together once shot is placed in the flask. I will try to take some pics of the flask, but I am a terrible photographer so don't hold your breath.

There is a way the sewing can be repaired without turning the leather inside out and back again after re-sewing, but before that can be pursued, the condition of the leather around the stitching must be examined closely. If the leather there was/is flaking or shows signs of the fibers cracking, the leather won't hold shot and may not even be able to be resewn again, even if a good leather conditioner is used on it.

If when the leather is not in that bad of condition, then it needs to be conditioned with a leather conditioner like Lexol, prior to sewing.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lexol-Le...led-with-a-Microfiber-Cloth-2-Items/435419819

The way it can be sewn "as is" without turning it inside out and back again, AND depending on whether you can get to the sewing through the neck hole, would be to use small curved needles with the thread and a pair of long nose, needle nose set of pliers. You may be able to find a small enough pair of curved needles in a pack of upholstery needles or from a leather workers' shop. If not, then I suggest looking to small regular surgeon's curved needles as shown in this link:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.shopmedvet.com/images/uploads/57090_18424_large.jpg

I got the latter idea from sitting with my Step Daughter for almost 3 hours while a Plastic Surgeon sewed the shredded bottom of her ear, where a horse had bitten/chewed it. The Surgeon did a wonderful job of sewing the shredded pieces back and within a few years, one could not tell it had ever been shredded. However, please do not use Plastic Surgeon's Curved Needles, as they have a triangular point to pierce the skin. That's why I mentioned a regular Surgeon's needles, as they are like a common needle, only bent into a curve. They should not do much, if any damage to the holes already in the leather.

Gus

 

[Kansas Jake]

You might also google automotive armrest seam repair. My daughter had one crack and stitched it and it was barely noticeable. There are a number of how to’s on YouTube.

 

[Vomir le Chien]

I cut the nub off,gave the forearm to another poster on this or another B/P site and moved the nose cap back to where the stock was split and resoldered it to the barrel recarved the stock to fit in the nose cap and went shooting.My rifle,my time !! Been my experience no matter what you do to any gear you own,someone is more than happy to take,free, as a gift,no matter how ugly, This rifle would make a perfect rifle for a youngster if after the modifications I wrote,the barrel was cut shorter. Just shooting my ugly.Soon as I figure out how to post pictures I"ll post one.

 

[rafterob]

I have done this, and not as difficult as the method Artificer describes. Again if the leather is not in good condition, reconsider any attempt to repair it. I do not recommend glue, no need for it.
Separate the two halves removing all old thread. Open up all the stitch holes with a stout needle. Dipping the needle in some neat's foot oil is a good idea. Get ready to restitch it; you will use two needles and cross stitch it. Cross stitching yields a stronger seam vs. whip stitching.
I used a small plastic coke bottle mounted upside down in a vise to keep the two halves held apart about an inch and 1/2. You want to maintain this distance for the first step of stitching. Starting at the bottom of the pouch, thread the needles through from the inside and knot each thread, one to each side of the pouch. Make sure the knot ends stay inside the pouch. Proceed to cross stitch one side of the pouch, start needles entering from the outside and then pull them from the inside of the opposite piece. This will keep any thread from being trapped within the seam. (To help stabilize the other side while you sew the first, run a couple-few lengths of thread in 2 or three different places on that side and knot them.) Loosely stitch one side up and then do the other side. When you have the stitching in place on both sides, start at the bottom pulling the stitches tight with a stout long needle or other appropriate tool. Alternate sides as you go. First time just pull the sides together loosely, then go back a second time to really tighten them up. Be sure to insert the spout before finalizing the tightening. Tie off the ends of the thread and trim. Then wrap the neck, some were done with a very thin sheath of leather and some were thread wrapped.I was able to salvage the leather sheath on mine and re-install it.
This method is easy to accomplish, you will end up seeing a small amount of the stitching in the seams because it is nearly impossible to pull them tight enough to bring the seams as tight as they were originally. After preparation and set-up, I was able to do the stitching and finish the project in one evening.

 

[Artificer]

Some very interesting information. Thank you.

I agree cross stitching is stronger than whip stitching, because you are using two threads instead of one, but wonder about the wear from the shot on the exposed threads causing the stitching to fail faster?

Gus

 

[Cutfingers]

As a long time leather worker don't take the chance of destroying such a valuable memento. Retire it and use the pattern for a new one.

 

[Rifleman1776]

As a long time leather worker don't take the chance of destroying such a valuable memento. Retire it and use the pattern for a new one.

Worth repeating. Amen, Bro.