Forensic Identification for Flintlock Remains

[CoffeeMonger]

Barrel isn't French. Hard to say what it was originally the way it was mangled.

Seems to have a bayonet tang and the sight is gone from the top.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Merry Christmas all, I’ve recently been gifted the remains of a flintlock musket and I’d love to know the origins if possible. The only script remaining is the name J.Ridout (not Rideout). There is a little engraving on the hammer side plate. Also, the hammer is attached with a blacksmith made bolt, not a screw which may be original or more than likely a field repair. I’d love to have your thoughts. It’s a wall hanger for sure. Thank you. View attachment 277402

Merry Christmas all, I’ve recently been gifted the remains of a flintlock musket and I’d love to know the origins if possible. The only script remaining is the name J.Ridout (not Rideout). There is a little engraving on the hammer side plate. Also, the hammer is attached with a blacksmith made bolt, not a screw which may be original or more than likely a field repair. I’d love to have your thoughts. It’s a wall hanger for sure. Thank you. View attachment 277402

Be interesting if it could talk

 

[Clark Badgett]

Wow. That is a very interesting gun. The bottom lug would suggest it was once a French barrel, but the sight is reminiscent of French trade guns. The butt looks like it may have never had a plate, but also has the wrist escutcheon. I agree if only it could talk.

 

[Flintlock1640]

OK, this is a crazy gun and I'm so glad you have almost all of it together. I wish so badly it had any kind of markings on that barrel to show what colony it came from. The stock was throwing me because it has been trimmed down to removed the comb and top part where the butt plate attached. No idea why they would do that but it should look something like this:

The Bess style trigger guard is American. The hazelnut is wrong and there is no screw to hold on the thumb plate. The thumb plate is also American. The Bess plate looks like this (on the left, with a different American on the right):

This lock is possibly a replacement and likely dates to the 1790s but Sean Rich has a very similar lock on an American gun that he dates Rev War to 1812 period so it is possible the lock is older than initially thought. Out of curiosity how long is the barrel? It is missing two ramrod pipes so the Americans are copying the Long Land Brown Bess based on the pipes and rounded side plate. I would say it is wartime or colonial militia. A fantastic piece of history no matter the condition.

 

[Clark Badgett]

OK, this is a crazy gun and I'm so glad you have almost all of it together. I wish so badly it had any kind of markings on that barrel to show what colony it came from. The stock was throwing me because it has been trimmed down to removed the comb and top part where the butt plate attached. No idea why they would do that but it should look something like this: View attachment 287794
The Bess style trigger guard is American. The hazelnut is wrong and there is no screw to hold on the thumb plate. The thumb plate is also American. The Bess plate looks like this (on the left, with a different American on the right): View attachment 287795This lock is possibly a replacement and likely dates to the 1790s but Sean Rich has a very similar lock on an American gun that he dates Rev War to 1812 period so it is possible the lock is older than initially thought. Out of curiosity how long is the barrel? It is missing two ramrod pipes so the Americans are copying the Long Land Brown Bess based on the pipes and rounded side plate. I would say it is wartime or colonial militia. A fantastic piece of history no matter the condition.

The lock has the tulip/double tulip commonly found on economy English/Belgian locks commonly found on export quality English pistols and fowlers from approximately 1800 or so. And brought over by the barrel full. I love those locks. So utilitarian.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

OK, this is a crazy gun and I'm so glad you have almost all of it together. I wish so badly it had any kind of markings on that barrel to show what colony it came from. The stock was throwing me because it has been trimmed down to removed the comb and top part where the butt plate attached. No idea why they would do that but it should look something like this: View attachment 287794
The Bess style trigger guard is American. The hazelnut is wrong and there is no screw to hold on the thumb plate. The thumb plate is also American. The Bess plate looks like this (on the left, with a different American on the right): View attachment 287795This lock is possibly a replacement and likely dates to the 1790s but Sean Rich has a very similar lock on an American gun that he dates Rev War to 1812 period so it is possible the lock is older than initially thought. Out of curiosity how long is the barrel? It is missing two ramrod pipes so the Americans are copying the Long Land Brown Bess based on the pipes and rounded side plate. I would say it is wartime or colonial militia. A fantastic piece of history no matter the condition.

Thanks for all the pics! The notion that it was cut down and even shaved back to a lower profile has never crossed my mind. Thats a big deal! The thumb plate is also a cool indicator. Your American plate is similar and mine looks like it would fall right between them in size as mine is a little longer. I thought it was odd when I put it up to my shoulder, how close the pan would be to my face. Not a fun thought! Breach to tip is 40.25”

 

[CoffeeMonger]

No idea, but how in the world is it a “wall hanger”? It’s just bits and pieces.

Just a way of saying it’ll never be fired again and made into a display of some kind.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Thanks for all the pics! The notion that it was cut down and even shaved back to a lower profile has never crossed my mind. Thats a big deal! The thumb plate is also a cool indicator. Your American plate is similar and mine looks like it would fall right between them in size as mine is a little longer. I thought it was odd when I put it up to my shoulder, how close the pan would be to my face. Not a fun thought! Breach to tip is 40.25”

American muskets are often odd lengths. Is it .75?

 

[CoffeeMonger]

The lock has the tulip/double tulip commonly found on economy English/Belgian locks commonly found on export quality English pistols and fowlers from approximately 1800 or so. And brought over by the barrel full. I love those locks. So utilitarian.

How do I even begin the search for locating a pan, frizzed, springs, etc? This is part that seems daunting to me. Haha

 

[CoffeeMonger]

American muskets are often odd lengths. Is it .75?

Not sure I understand the .75

 

[Flintlock1640]

Not sure I understand the .75

the barrel caliber. Diameter of the inside.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Wow. That is a very interesting gun. The bottom lug would suggest it was once a French barrel, but the sight is reminiscent of French trade guns. The butt looks like it may have never had a plate, but also has the wrist escutcheon. I agree if only it could talk.

This is a new discovery. As I was smoothing out the rust (cleaning), I came across this rectangle brass inlay. It’s located 13” from the breach on the right side. The top line is at 1:00 and the bottom is about 2:30 (clock times for orientation as if you’re looking down the fictional sight). The sides of the rectangle are concave. Could it have had something to do with the militia it was used in or a commemorative filled etching for a place it was used? I’ve never seen this before so I’m guessing.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

the barrel caliber. Diameter of the inside.

Just shy of .75”. My calipers are rubbish. Ha

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Be interesting if it could talk

My luck is that all it would do is cuss.

 

[Flintlock1640]

This is a new discovery. As I was smoothing out the rust (cleaning), I came across this rectangle brass inlay. It’s located 13” from the breach on the right side. The top line is at 1:00 and the bottom is about 2:30 (clock times for orientation as if you’re looking down the fictional sight). The sides of the rectangle are concave. Could it have had something to do with the militia it was used in or a commemorative filled etching for a place it was used? I’ve never seen this before so I’m guessing.

By chance is there more than one? It reminds me of the braized edge of a ramrod pipe when it is directly attached to the barrel. could be that the barrel is not original to the stock and the tang is in a new position (that could explain the bayonet lug being down instead of up)

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Electrolysis on the barrel would bring out details

 

[CoffeeMonger]

By chance is there more than one? It reminds me of the braized edge of a ramrod pipe when it is directly attached to the barrel. could be that the barrel is not original to the stock and the tang is in a new position (that could explain the bayonet lug being down instead of up)

That’s an interesting thought too. But no, this is the only “marking” of its kind on the whole barrel. Someone had suggested that the tang may have been to keep the ram rod in place. That’s a question for the professionals!

 

[Flintlock1640]

That’s an interesting thought too. But no, this is the only “marking” of its kind on the whole barrel. Someone had suggested that the tang may have been to keep the ram rod in place. That’s a question for the professionals!

no that's a bayonet lug without question. I would take pictures of the breech from different sides to see if there are additional marks underneath

 

[Clark Badgett]

By chance is there more than one? It reminds me of the braized edge of a ramrod pipe when it is directly attached to the barrel. could be that the barrel is not original to the stock and the tang is in a new position (that could explain the bayonet lug being down instead of up)

I had thought with the shape of narrow of the tang that it could have been turned. Especially with it being .75 bore.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Electrolysis on the barrel would bring out details

I was considering a vinegar bath… not committed yet.