forged barrel vs machined

[Dphar]

Just as an aside, after this experience I have always chosen 12L14 because of it's tendency to split rather than fracture like my Douglas barrel did....maybe I have been mistaken?

You cannot count on any cold rolled steel only splitting should it fail. Its brittle, ALL cold rolled steels are. They tend to brittle fracture and may split or they may fragment.
Its simply not predictable. 5 barrels made from the same lot of material will tolerate the most outrageous tests and then another just like it will blow with a service load.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I expected 12L14 to split rather than fracture and blow the top portion of the barrel off like mine did.
Just to make clear, as you have interest in these types of things....1" straight Douglas barrel in .50 36" long, bought about 1981 or so. load was 80 gr 3fff goex. I loaded it, got caught in conversation, then poured another 80gr powder charge and short started another ball then got caught in conversation again. All of a sudden it was my turn to shoot and I stepped up and pulled the trigger. Top flat of the barrel took off to parts unknown the gun sheared in half at the breech, The breech plug remained in the stock as it was secured with two tang bolts threaded into the trigger plate and the rear lock bolt passed through the breech plug. The short started ball remained in the barrel with no bulge. My left hand was numb and a I had a singed eye brow and was pretty deafened for a while, otherwise no worse for the experience. I believe if it wasn't for the two tang bolts and the lock bolt passing through the breech lug I wouldn't be here today. To this day I always check to make sure the ball is seated when I step to the firing line. These things can be dangerous if you don't pay attention to what you're doing.

Nasty. You really were lucky.
Brittle steels when they fail will often split far ahead of the projectile and the bullet will exit the crack, or get stuck in it and never clear the muzzle.
See this would be a "loading error" failure from the legal systems point of view.
But I claim the barrel should not have failed in this manner.
In the 1870s Fredrick Selous attempted to shoot an elephant with a 4 bore "Elephant gun" that was is reality a "ducking gun" used for elephants. His 4 bores only weighed about 13 pounds (they should have weighed 20+).
The gun missed fire and he passed it to his gun bearer to cap. But the bearer loaded it on top of the original load. The powder charge was put in by handful and was apparently 12-14 drams of "coarse powder" "an ordinary handful is 12 drams". The bearer handed him the gun back which he thought had been recapped. He had shot an elephant while the gun was double charged and was not able to watch the process.
He then fired at another elephant and the recoil crippled him for some weeks, destroyed the stock which was rawhide wrapped and cut him severely under the cheek bone. But he did not mention the barrel failing and he did wound the elephant he fired on. He had one heck of a time finishing it off though with his right arm not functioning.
So even with a thin barrel a double charge is not an automatic blown barrel.

This is in "The Wanderings of An Elephant Hunter" by F. C. Selous.

In light of your experience you might be interested in this.
Years ago "The Buckskin Report" printed a report from a physician written in a medical journal circa 1840 in which he detailed removing a breech plug from a mans head.
Several years previous the man's rifle had burst and he had suffered headaches and IIRC vision problems and finally sought out a doctor.
The doctor found that the pointed tang plug had entered at the corner of the man's eye and will minor probing the face of the plug was visible.
He removed the plug from the man's head without too much trouble and the patient made a good recovery.

And thanks I will put your description in my "barrel failure file" with the reports I got from James Kelly, a retired metallurgist.

I put is a double load of powder about a month ago due to talking. 150 grains in the 50 cal.
I have been lucky not to shoot a short started ball. But I seldom use a starter which helps prevent this I guess...
Dan

 

[Jason Lewis]

this is an interesting and kinda scary discussion, so what do the modern barrel makers use, like rayl, long hammock etc.. ?

 

[Zonie]

Most, if not all use cold rolled steel for their barrels.

Hot rolled steel initially is a little less expensive if the same grade or type of steel is being discussed however the machining costs are higher.

The scale on hot rolled steel is very hard on cutters. Often, a special "roughing" cut is made just to get rid of the surface scale and to size the part accuratly for later operations in the manufacturing cycle. The time to do this results in these costs being included in the price of the final part.

Everyone likes a $100 barrel but most would squak at spending another $20 to pay for the roughing operation.

 

[Dphar]

Most, if not all use cold rolled steel for their barrels.

Hot rolled steel initially is a little less expensive if the same grade or type of steel is being discussed however the machining costs are higher.

The scale on hot rolled steel is very hard on cutters. Often, a special "roughing" cut is made just to get rid of the surface scale and to size the part accuratly for later operations in the manufacturing cycle. The time to do this results in these costs being included in the price of the final part.

Everyone likes a $100 barrel but most would squak at spending another $20 to pay for the roughing operation.

Hot rolled gun barrel quality (as opposed to welding shop quality) steel is significantly more expensive than run of the mill steel of any type. Most steel of this type has a oxide on the exterior but its not the black/blue scale found on welding shop quality hot rolled. Some has an exterior finish much like found on the typical cold finished steel.
I live 1/2 mile from a place that makes gun barrels from GB quality hot rolled steel and I use cut off ends for things like breech plugs etc. And I used to work there.
Not only is it expensive it can't be bought in small lots so small users (only thousands of barrels a year) have to pool orders to get a run made.

It wears cutters because steels like 4150 are far tougher to machine than cold rolled which is specifically designed for rapid feed rates at the expense of other desirable properties for gun barrels, like toughness.
Machine a dovetail in a piece of GB quality 1137 then do the same in 4140-4150 and you will soon understand.

Dan

 

[LaBonte]

As regards Mr. Kelly the metallurgist referred to above - and yes I have his report as well and 12L14 represents only a portion of the 18 cases he presented.......

I don’t care for 12L14 at all. However, to keep things in perspective, there have been far more lawsuits for injured skeet shooters using modern 1137 shotgun barrels than even I would imagine happens with muzzle loaders.

For myself, I would prefer a muzzle loading barrel of 8620, such as Caywood claims for their southern rifle, 4130, 4140 or the 4150 used by modern makers such as James McLemore. These alloy steels are far superior to any free-machining carbon steel such as 1137. Personally I’d discuss the matter with a modern barrel maker.

FWIW - 1137 is the steel used by Green Mtn. Ed Rayl and Mark Dehaas use 4140 (the steel often used for modern cartridge guns). Getz, considered to be on e of the best makers with years of experience, uses 12L14. Not sure about the others - call and ask.

As to the quality of a barrel there is much more than the type of steel alone to consider. While cold drawn steel does have stresses built into it due to it's manufacturing methods, the building of a barrel: machining, heat, etc. has an effect on those stresses and must be considered as well. In fact unless a barrel is purposely stress relieved after machining there will be stresses that may and can cause failures, so again the steel alone is not the only factor. The subject is not that simple.

Bottomline - While knowledge is always good, one should remember there are thousands of 12L14 and other perhaps less than appropriate steel barrels on muzzleloaders and yet in the grand scheme of things there are very few blow ups, not only amongst modern made guns, but even with the originals using wrought iron or the infamous Damascus barrels that are so often claimed to be totally unsafe.
Yes blowups can and do happen and if it should happen to you then it's not a good thing, but overall the odds are far, far greater that you will get injured, seriously or otherwise, driving your car or taking a shower.......

 

[Dphar]

As regards Mr. Kelly the metallurgist referred to above - and yes I have his report as well and 12L14 represents only a portion of the 18 cases he presented.......

I don’t care for 12L14 at all. However, to keep things in perspective, there have been far more lawsuits for injured skeet shooters using modern 1137 shotgun barrels than even I would imagine happens with muzzle loaders.

For myself, I would prefer a muzzle loading barrel of 8620, such as Caywood claims for their southern rifle, 4130, 4140 or the 4150 used by modern makers such as James McLemore. These alloy steels are far superior to any free-machining carbon steel such as 1137. Personally I’d discuss the matter with a modern barrel maker.

FWIW - 1137 is the steel used by Green Mtn. Ed Rayl and Mark Dehaas use 4140 (the steel often used for modern cartridge guns). Getz, considered to be on e of the best makers with years of experience, uses 12L14. Not sure about the others - call and ask.

As to the quality of a barrel there is much more than the type of steel alone to consider. While cold drawn steel does have stresses built into it due to it's manufacturing methods, the building of a barrel: machining, heat, etc. has an effect on those stresses and must be considered as well. In fact unless a barrel is purposely stress relieved after machining there will be stresses that may and can cause failures, so again the steel alone is not the only factor. The subject is not that simple.

Bottomline - While knowledge is always good, one should remember there are thousands of 12L14 and other perhaps less than appropriate steel barrels on muzzleloaders and yet in the grand scheme of things there are very few blow ups, not only amongst modern made guns, but even with the originals using wrought iron or the infamous Damascus barrels that are so often claimed to be totally unsafe.
Yes blowups can and do happen and if it should happen to you then it's not a good thing, but overall the odds are far, far greater that you will get injured, seriously or otherwise, driving your car or taking a shower.......

All damascus is noit created equal either.
The damascus in an 1898 best grade English express rifle is a far different material than that found in a $3 Belgium made shot gun.
Damascus has been and still is being proved for nitro powders in shotguns.

While there are a lot of 12L14 barrels out there, one must remember that when they fail people usually get hurt. The problem with cold rolled steel is that it cannot even be proved and then be considered safe. Proving is only valid if the steel is the proper alloy and grade. Proving a cold rolled steel barrel simply proves it has no gross flaws, it does not prove it is safe to shoot.
4140... Is it 4140 cold rolled? Is it 41L40, leaded steel, a no-no. Rayle also uses 8620 at times, or so he told me. But I don't think he knows half the time. I asked for a piece of 8620 to make a breech for the barrel I ordered and got through hardening steel.

Proper barrel steel, as pointed out by the LaSalle Steel letter, requires a SPECIAL RUN at the plant. The entire steel making process is different for high quality steel as compared to the hot rolled stuff made from old Buick bumpers you get at the welding shop or when you order 12L14 or other run of the mill steels.

P.O. Ackley used to make barrels from 1144. I have watched 1144 (Stressproof (its not), see the LaSalle letter again) barrels being buttoned. A frightening number failed. Why, because the stuff is VERY BRITTLE. In this case they were running heavy Sharps barrels, to make them fit the gun barrel they had to rebate the muzzle about 4" to 1.25" from a larger diameter, 1.75 or 2" IIRC.
These were than drilled, reamed and buttoned but since 1144 is brittle and REALLY dislikes notches etc several blanks split from the rebate to the muzzle. Funny thing, hot rolled GB 4140 quality does not do this. which would you rather have.
1144 I am told is deigned for driven shafts and will tolerate an incredible amount of twisting and such without failure. But it is not designed for gun barrels.

1137 is not my first choice either but at least I can be assured that hot rolled 1137 GB quality has no big lead or sulfur inclusions and is not brittle. I have seen this steel burst by extreme pressure excursions with smokeless powder, it does no fracture with a normal pressure rise (full case of smokelss) but it and any other steel will if underloaded with smokeless which often causes the smokeless powder to act like an HE which will break any known barrel steel.
I know people have grossly overloaded 1137 cartridge barrels with smokeless. I have never seen one that failed due to overload except in testing with an intentional BORE OBSTRUCTION and LOTS of IMR 4198.
However, I can produce page from the Buckskin Report that contains a letter from the then ASSRA President from the same time as the LaSalle letter stating the 12L14 barrels have been failing in cartridge guns with cast bullet loads and that the ASSRA does not recommend barrels be made from the stuff.
Some had been shot for 10s of thousands of rounds then suddenly failed.
In my experience the only people that will defend leaded screw stock are the people that make barrels from the stuff and thus MUST defend it or people that believe what they tell them.
12L14 barrels DO burst. People ARE injured. Its just a fact. But people would rather ignore it than think about it since they know they have a 12L14 barrel and its easier to put their head in the sand and hope their number does not come up.

Talk to someone who makes real barrels, Krieger or Ernie Stallman etc and ask them about 12l14 or leaded steel. You won't like the answer.
As a side note I won't own a stainless steel barrel either.
The failure rate is too high and I don't regrow body parts like a lizard.
This is just the tip of the iceburg.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/1101978285825

Other manufacturers have had problems too.

Dan