Fowler for grouse?

[Runner]

I think the blunderbuss folks can speak for themselves Mike!

 

[paulvallandigham]

If a gunmaker made a short barreled gun with enough weight up forward to make it balance as well as those same gun makers make long barreled guns, then an 18" barrel for fast moving Quail and Grouse hunting would be terrific. The only drawback to short barreled guns is the nearness of the muzzle blast. I like the 30 inch barrels because it moves the muzzle blast far enough from my ears that I don't get instant tinnitis! The problem with most short barreled shotguns today is that they are just long barreled guns with the barrels cut down. That destroys the balance designed and built into the longer barreled gun, and makes those cut off barrels " whippy ".

NEF has introduced the old H&R Topper shotgun but with a twist. Its using 10 gauge barrels for 12 gauge bores, and 12 gauge barrels for 20 gauge bores. Instead of a too light shotgun that beats the shooter to death, the new guns have enough weight to control recoil, and the thicker barrel give barrel hang, as well dampen barrel vibrations, so that they make some of the most accurate barrels now available on the market. Their rifle versions of that gun are among the best, most accurate, out-of-the-box varmint guns now made. And, you can't beat the price.

The barrel on my 30 inch fowler is a bit thicker-walled than most fowler barrels are made.

 

[hawk]

I hunt the thick bush of northern Ontario for moose and once the moose is in the tree it's grouse huntin' time.

:shocked2: Sooo......do you use dogs to tree the moose just like bear and cougar hunters?. Out west here our moose are way too big to climb trees :blah: . Shooting things out of trees aint very sporting either :grin:

you must have some strong dogs out west if they can get a moose up a tree!!!



:rotf: :rotf: not too sporting...but if you can find one in a tree half the works already done :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Mike Brooks said: We all play this game for different reasons. For me it's all about the guns. I want the experience of learning how the old timers used these guns and didn't seem to think they were at a disadvantage. From my experience they did quite well with their "unwieldly" old archaic fowling guns.
For many of us this is the heart and soul of the hunting experience. Using the traditional gun traditionally. I just spent some time swinging my little fowler and it seems to be pretty quick to me. Its light weight and balance mean it is a pleasure to carry afield. I suppose traditional means different things to different people but for me, I like to be as traditional as possible--being a little bit traditional seems to me like being a little bit pregnant--either you are or you aren't. I think those who love the old guns and use them in their original form probably get the same feeling of pleasure from a David Wright print of early grouse hunters, who are happily wing shooting with their long fowlers on crisp fall days. For us it it about a long slender birding piece, a challenge met and a soul satisfying experience. Maybe for us it is the difference between hunting and just shooting.

 

[tg]

I think much of the short barrel is best syndrome is just a carryover from what most have used for most of their lives when compared to the 18th century guns.I don't shoot grouse or quail as much as i did with a 28" pump gun but I still hit about the same % with a 42" barrel.Some folks cannot handle a new concept as well as others.

 

[Darkgael]

An intriguing thread on this extended topic.
I will be traveling to a gunmaker - Gobbler's Knob - near me in PA next week. Perhaps I'll get a chance to swing a few guns.
May be I'll have a different take on the long barrel after that.
About some of the ideas expressed - lots of different philosophy about tradition. I suppose that the comment about being a traditionalist or not is true. I also suppose that I am not. My interest in these marvelous firearms stems from an interest in history but, that being said and as you can tell from my original question, I am more interested in what works best in the field. I don't think of myself as a meat hunter. In my part of PA, hunting grouse is mostly being out in the woods for a walk with your dog. If we see or hear one grouse an hour, we are doing well.
If I thought that a long traditional barrel would work as well as the 28-30" guns that I use now, I'd buy one in a minute. The jury seems to be out on that one, however. Perhaps, after I handle a few, I'll have a different take. I'm willing to learn.
About backing into the thickets in order to get through - trust me on this one - that is not an option on North Mountain, not if you want to stay upright. And.. there are game trails through them...they are about dog height. I have crawled them, gun on the ground, muzzle behind me - not what I want to do to a fine firearm.
Sporting clays - I'd like to try but the closest public range that I've been able to find is 70 miles away. There has to be one closer, wouldn't you think? Maybe I should call Dixon (though he's not close) and ask (hmmm. Good idea, Pete)
Pete

 

[paulvallandigham]

You don't go through thickets using game trails: they are always too low for a full grown man. You go around them. As for finding your way in the woods, anywhere, look for game runs and trails to connect every large tree with every other large tree in the woods. You may not be able to go in a straight line, in the direction you want to go, but you can weave back and forth from large tree to large tree, stopping at each one to let the forest quiet down and stop sending out distress calls because of your movement. ( Listen to the birds and small game for alarm, or distress calls when you are moving too fast!)

Trust me when I tell you that the game animals will map a path around and through the thickest bramble and kudzu in the forest. The four feet of a white tail deer are marvelous weapons for cutting down weeds and brush stalks that otherwise grow up and choke out paths, trails,and game runs. The shade from large trees help in this regard, killing off smaller brush and smaller trees and plants that othrwise will choke a forest floor. Let your dog go into those thickets following the runs to chase out the grouse, or quail, or rabbits.

I stopped crashing through bramble as soon as I put my mind in gear and remembered to look for game runs, and trails. Since then, I am much more able to quietly work my way through the woods, disturbing resident game and song birds much less. I see more wildlife, and am much closer to birds when they flush.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I gotta say, I've done alot of hunting in my day, but never through any place I had difficulty walking through. That's what dogs are for.

 

[Darkgael]

Mike and Paul: Yeah, That's the impression that I'm getting - may be my circumstances are odd (or.. may be that I'm making too much of them?) but that's what influenced my initial thoughts about barrel length in a fowler.
A quick story about hunting the PA state game land on North Mt., a few miles in from the Allegheny escarpment. I was with my friend Dave, a long time grouse hunter, and his Brittany. The dog disappeared into a mess of huckleberry and went on point - collar beeping. We waded in from two places. The bushes were as tall as I am - six feet - or taller, branches interlocking, ground very rocky. The dog was less than twenty feet from me as near as I can tell when the bird finally had had enough and flushed. We could not see either the dog or the bird, just heard it go. I couldn't see Dave either - we call to each other regularly to make sure that we don't "do a Cheney". That's fairly normal cover; though there are open areas, the birds seem to like the thick stuff don't they?
Pete

 

[paulvallandigham]

Only one of you should have tried to enter the thicket, and that should primarily be the dog's owner. You should have been posted back away from the thicket so you could have some kind of shot when the bird flushed. If you had stayed away from the bramble, and down wind, standing quietly. The bird may just have come out past you. Remember this for future hunts.

 

[Darkgael]

Thank you, Paul. I will remember that.
The point of my posts, however, was not to seek hunting advice, though the advice is appreciated, but to illustrate why my thoughts about fowlers tended toward less decorative pieces and shorter barrels.
Pete

 

[Vaino]

When the dog points a grouse in heavy cover, whose to flush it? Our good grouse covers are very thick and there's miles of it....some "road hunt" grouse to avoid the tangles and for that you could use a 50" bbl. Also some states have fence rows to hunt and that's where you could also use a 50" bbl, but in northern Wisconsin if you don't "road hunt",there's nothing like a 26" imp. cyl. bbl. I can appreciate the beautiful silhouette of a long barreled fowler but if putting meat on the table has any importance, it just won't cut it in the cover I hunt......Fred

 

[Roy]

I've had those same problems as Pete, but hunting on my own. And my dog will hold point as long as the bird holds. Sometimes you just have to go in the thick stuff. Hunting where I hunt in Iowa a long barrel would not hinder me. Ditches and hedge... I hardly have to go through them and the dog hunts close. That ofcourse that is for pheasant and quail not the ruffed grouse who prefer grown over cuts and even if she hunts close (with a blaze orange vest) sometimes she dissapears just a few feet away.
I never gave much thought to short barreled muzzleloaders untill I made the one for Swampy. He ofcourse had the shorter barrel made so that it would be easier for him to handle and load. When it was finished I thought that it was quite handy.
My next gun will be a double flinter so hopefully there will not be the controversy on whats proper barrel length :haha: . Heck its hard just to own one gun anyway :grin: :v Id prefer to have a different one for every sittuation :wink: :v

 

[Runner]

I have never jumped a woodcock in anything but heavy river bottom tangles. Mud, tangles, sweat, whirrrr, zoom, gone. I hunt them for revenge mainly for the number of stalks on deer and turkey they have blown for me over the years scaring the crud out of me each time!

 

[redwing]

Short barreled guns work well when shooting over close working dogs. The dogs of course that are steady to wing and shot.

I some times think short barreled guns were more related to the increased use of well trained dogs and sport hunting. The use of Bird Dogs{The dogs of pure pleasure to own] for common folks came about more near the 1840s. This does not include the Market Hunters which is another story.

The smooth bores were not as long or needed to be shooting over a dog. I think this had a lot to do with length maybe more than brush shooting. The other aspect was farming and open grain fields where birds went to eat. The lack of hunting to eat, more for sport. The guns became more specific to serve a hunting need. The end of big game hunting caused a lack of shooting balls in the smooth guns. Just another take on shorter barrels.As for myself I prefer a fine setter steady to wing and shot, and a long barreled fowler. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have never jumped a woodcock in anything but heavy river bottom tangles. Mud, tangles, sweat, whirrrr, zoom, gone. I hunt them for revenge mainly for the number of stalks on deer and turkey they have blown for me over the years scaring the crud out of me each time!

I've never hunted grouse, we don't have them around here. But, I don't see the point of bashing your way through heavy cover with a stubby gun if you don't see the bird when it flushes anyway. :hmm:
I think I'd send the dog in and wait till something happens, maybe throw in a stick or two..... Whilst waiting for the flush I could study the fine decoration on my long barreled fowling gun. :haha:
I've waded through prairie grass up to my shoulders hunting pheasants, another usless task. You can't see the dog or wether it's on point or not, and once the bird flushes you only maybe get a glimps, not even allowing you to shoulder the gun. I believe There are areas that are best left un hunted.
Back to the original topic. If I decided to hunt with a stubby gun (under 38" and I do own them) I'd at least copy it after a post 1800 gun and make it a 1/2 stock with a patent breech. But that's just me and I'm a little annal about stuff like that. :haha:

 

[Darkgael]

" But, I don't see the point of bashing your way through heavy cover with a stubby gun if you don't see the bird when it flushes anyway."
Well, Mike...you do see them sometimes. Sometimes the bird "towers" and is up where it can be shot at.
"There are areas that are best left unhunted."
You have to hunt ruffed grouse where they live. Around here that's where they are to be found more often than not. The shots come, as I said, when the bird clears the brush and heads for the hemlocks. That particular bird did not go up.(Last year, same dog, I had one go straight away on the other side of the bush. I did see him that time. THAT huckleberry still has a round hole through it where the shot charge passed.) Missed the bird.
Again, though, the other example was an attempt to illustrate my initial rationale for maybe wanting a short barrel. Notice the change to "maybe". They sure are purty guns.
Pete

 

[tg]

"I thought that a long traditional barrel would work as well as the 28-30" guns that I use now, I'd buy one in a minute. The jury seems to be out on that one,'

If you consider the posts from those who have actually used the long barreled guns the verdict is quite clear, most of the arguement for short guns is from those who have not used long ones?

 

[Darkgael]

Yeah. I see your point, though it's a mix as I see it: some of the shorter barrel advocates have not used a long barreled fowler and some in the long barrel camp have never hunted ruffed grouse.
I'll be looking at the longer barrels shortly. I really wish that I knew someone who owed a fowler with a traditional barrel. I'd like to go out and walk some of this cover with it.
Maybe I'll walk a bit with my Lyman GP just to get a sense (maybe strap on 16" somehow). Weight of a fowler with a 48" bbl.?
Pete

 

[rabjr]

And some of us are just height challenged. :haha:

I'd like nothing more than to own and use a 46" barreled fowler but they just are not user friendly for me. :v