French musket - Deal or no deal?

[Moloch]

I am not an expert about original muzzleloaders, what do you think?

The owner says that it is a french musket of about .70 caliber which was converted to percussion. About 1850. Lock works fine and the stock is a bit worn but ok, no parts have been swapped.
The owner wants 400 for it. The funny thing is that the musket is equipped with a front and a rear sight, maybe the rifling is worn off? :hmm:



I have posted this because I wanted to hear some opinions from the ''experts''. :wink:
For me 400 is ok, I mean the barrel is good enough to shoot it from time to time, the metal overall is ok and the stock is a bit beat up but no major cracks. It still looks good too, its just needs a bit lovin'. :grin:

What do you think?

 

[PreglerD]

Hi moloch,

I think 400 bucks are realy o.k. Be aware that the barrel is realy in good condition, so clean it real well and light it out, the ignition channel also. I only would use light bp loads in the musket.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[tg]

I am not so sure it is French or a conversion from flint but if the barrel is sound the price is good.

 

[Okwaho]

If it's French the lock should be well marked probably by one of the several French royal armories, Maubege.St.Etienne, Charleville,or Tulle {if it still had that designation received in 1777}.In 1839 the French began converting weapons {models 1816 and 1822} to percussion by means of a steel insert in the lock plate and a nipple bolster on the barrel.A rear sight was also added onto the tang and the front sight removed from the barrel bands and attached to the barrel.If this was done the letter "T" {transformed}was stamped and if then or later the gun was rifled the letters "BIS" meaning transformed in two ways were added. These markings should be small marks on the tang.The cheek piece side seems to have a depressed area just below the comb but I don't know if this was issue or added.This was apparently the last front action locks on infantry muskets through the 1850's.

I really wonder whether this gun is French but can't tell without some hands on.I don't know about $400.00 for what is a very average gun from the first half of the 19th century although it could be one of the obsolete guns purchased by both sides from Europe by both sides at the onset of the Civil War.
Tom Patton

 

[jdstrang]

Moloch:

Is that $400 U.S., or 400 Euro?

(Heck, I'd probably buy it either way, but just want to keep the accounting straight here...)

 

[Moloch]

@ Pappa Bear

Its in €, 1 € is about 1.2 USD.

The owner of the gun said that he dropped a light down the bore and its ok. Some flash rust but no pitting. Its a smoothbore, it has the long 3-band barrel. The lock has no marking though.

Tough decision. :hmm:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Deal? Yes, but I think the identification as French is incorrect but for the life of me I can not figure out what it is. The shape of lockplate is all wrong for a French gun as well as the shape of the percussion hammer and the bolster. The gun does have several French features however. The cheeckpiece and overall appearance of the stock as well as the French style rear sight on the barrel tang point to French influence, but as Okwaho said, there should be markings on the barrel tang indicating percussion conversion ("T") and if rifled as percussion ("Bis"). My vote is for one of the German states of the pre-Imperial era but I am unsure as to which it may be, Bavaria maybe? Braunsweig? Hannover? Any of the others? I have checked but my resources of the early German muskets other than those of Prussia are limited sorry to say, however, the lockplate shape, style of the bolster and the hammer do look frustratingly familiar..... Maybe Saxony? Whatever it is, the price, even in Euros, is good.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Oh, is all of the furniture steel or brass? It appears to be steel mounted.

 

[Moloch]

I think all the hardware is iron,oxidized brass does not look that bright IMO.

German origin could be right, the owner of this musket comes from germany and he also got it from a german colletor. He does not know a lot of ML's though.

If the rifle is ready to fire and the barrel is not harmed by rust pitting, it should be still able to withstand some pressure, right? IF I buy it I'll let a gunsmith check out the barrel just to be on the safe side.
Since this musket has a low collectors value, I would also remove the patina from barrel, lock and hardware. :hmm:

 

[PreglerD]

Hi moloch,

it might be a bavarian conversion of a french musket. I agree in cleaning all parts and polishing them so that it is ready for use again. Did the same thing with my eastern Ten. smoothie which I bought from Herman Historica, Munich. I even reconverted it from cap to flint, because in origin it was a flinter.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Hi moloch,

it might be a bavarian conversion of a french musket. I agree in cleaning all parts and polishing them so that it is ready for use again. Did the same thing with my eastern Ten. smoothie which I bought from Herman Historica, Munich. I even reconverted it from cap to flint, because in origin it was a flinter.

Regards

Kirrmeister

I do not think it is French, largely due to the fact that the lock is like no French design, it has a Germanic appearance. Viewed from a distance it would be easy to confuse it with, say, a French M1822 due to the stock and furniture configuration. They are French influenced but everyone was copying the French design features at the time.

As far as cleaning, be very careful, too much cleaning and polishing ( :shocked2: ) will ruin the collector value of the gun and it does have collector value, it is not a common gun. True, the bore and cone seat along with the flash channel should be cleaned scrupulously and checked for soundness but any exterior patina on both metal and wood should be preserved wherever possible, just remove loose dirt and and preserve it's signs of age, it has earned them. Good luck with your purchase, it is a great old gun and looks like it may be made to shoot again.

 

[musketman]

Make sure it is not loaded, some old guns were left loaded and as a result, sold loaded.

 

[Moloch]

Antice powder and ball makes it even more valuable. :grin: :wink:

What do you think? Thats a swiss musket and looks very similar with the one I want to buy, even the hammer has the same shape, but the lock plate is a bit different.

True, the bore and cone seat along with the flash channel should be cleaned scrupulously and checked for soundness but any exterior patina on both metal and wood should be preserved wherever possible,

I'll only remove surface rust on the iron hardware and barrel and afterwards I'll give the parts a good WD40 oiling. The bore will get more attention with WD40 and rust remover (not the aggressive kind). Maybe I'll replace the nippple for shooting, but I have to check it out before replacing it.

 

[Moloch]

Forgot to mention that the owner said that there is '' CC48 '' stamped on the stock. The ''48'' is also stamped on the barrel with an emblem.

 

[arquebus]

It looks Germanic to me as well. I have a Bavarian M.1858 Amberg (Podewils) musket, that has some similar features. As far as its origins are concerned, one thing to bear in mind is that alot of the muskets were made in Belgium & France under contract, so even though they aren't of a French pattern they could well have been made there.
You may also try this website http://www.bayerischewaffen.de/index.htm
It is run by a great guy by the name of Benedickt Hammer, he helped me identify my Podewils.
Take a look at the M.1842 musket, it looks quite similar to yours. http://www.bayerischewaffen.de/images/gewehr/m1804-26-42.jpg Here's the description from the website:

Infanteriegewehr M/1842
Charakteristika: Kaliber 17.8 mm, Länge ohne Bajonett 143 cm, Länge mit Bajonett 195.3 cm, Lauflänge 104.5 cm, Durchmesser des Laufes vorne 21.7 mm
Das Kimmenvisier war auf dem Schwanzschraubenschweif, das Schloss links rund zulaufend (vorher spitz). Die Bajonettverriegelung ist oben, das Kimmenvisier auf der Schwanzschraube, das Korn ist direkt auf dem Lauf. Der Abzugsbügel ist gerade und mit Stollen und einem Querstift im Schaft befestigt. Der Zündstollen ist angeschweisst (nicht geschraubt); das Schlossblech ist flach und hinten rund zulaufend. Die Hahnscheibe ist ebenfalls flach und hat eine Fase; das Abzugsblech ist tropfenförmig. Die Schaftsenkung liegt bei 73 mm.
Ab 16.4.1843 wurde der Abzugsbügel mit einer Schraube am Abzugsblech befestigt.
Ab 19.8.1850 wurde der Abzugshahn stärker gekrümmt.
Produktionsmenge: 20 833 Stück, davon 12 333 Stück in Amberg.
1859/60 wurden sie in gezogene Gewehre geändert.

 

[Moloch]

@ arquebus

Thanks for the link, the musket at the pic looks very similar. In fact the only difference is the ramrod, maybe it had been replaced.
The first few inches of the barrel seem to be conical to round, or at least the side walls are flat instead of round on both sides of the barrel, the M1842 seems to not have this feature. :hmm:


By the way, I just bought it. :hatsoff:

When I get it I'll strip it to clean it, so I can take a close look at stamping and numbers.

Just a question, I have several hundreds of round ball in .675 caliber I bought for my .69 rifled musket, would they work in a smooth barrel of .70 caliber? I would need a hefty thick patch for sure, but in a smoothbore it only holds ball and seals the barrel, right?

 

[tg]

I would use them, I sometimes use a .535 in a .58

 

[Moloch]

Do you get any accuracy with that combination? :shocked2: What patch thickness do you use?

If my rifle is shootable I would like to use it for 50yds, hits would be all over the target I guess. :grin:
The .69 ball weighs something around 450 grain maybe with a load of about 60 grain swiss 2FG as an easy load for the 170 years old lady. :wink:

 

[PreglerD]

Hi moloch,

I use in my original .54 flinter no patch at all, only a overpowderwad and a overbullet wad. works real good. At 50 m I get 3 shotgroups of about 50mm.

So it is a Bavarian musket as I guessed already.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[Moloch]

A plain ball down the bore with two wads must be a breeze to load. 50mm with a smoothie is some really nice shooting! :hatsoff: I have to give that a try too!

So it is a Bavarian musket as I guessed already.

Looking at the pic I also think that the muskets's origin is bavaria, but I'll take a closer look at it when I get it.