French Trade Knife Kit???

[Gobbletn]

Where can I find a good French Trade Knife Kit? I need a total kit as it will be for a friend with no experience... I saw some at the CLA show in Lexington but did not purchase... Any ideas?

 

[phoenix511]

"French Trade Knife" describes many knives, most having scales (handles) with a flat knob at the end. You can spend not much, like $20, or $100's. Kits from ToTW are reasonably-priced, but I don't know about the quality of the blade.

GOOGLE "french trade knife" and you'll get many hits. If you want a blade with a historic appearance, perhaps some of the custom-forged blade makers will provide, then you get the wood handle and rivets.

Some with bench/belt grinders, have reported buying old kitchen knives and reshaping them to the traditional tapered point and slender tip.

FWIW, if you want one for camping, the thin blades are far better for cutting onions, dicing potatoes, slicing apples, etc. Thicker, hand-forged blades are thicker and, I think, less handy around the kitchen ... but they sure look great!

 

[Gobbletn]

Thanks buddy, I have gone to Track but they have stopped offering kits... I build long rifles so aging the blade and finishing the wood is not a problem... I was hoping to find a complete kit. Google did not provide me with what I wanted and that's what prompted this post! Oh well... Thanks

 

[Moose Guide]

Google Janz knife supply, I know they have some fur trade style knives.

 

[Goldhunter]

Wick Ellerbe be used to. That's who I got mine from. :thumbsup:

 

[Prairieofthedog]

Gobbletn,Wick Ellerbe is the man you want.He is one of the easiest guys to work with and all his products are very historically correct.His workmanship is excellent and he has a website to show you all his wares.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I did Google it and got so many different styles it was no help in learning what a French trade knife is supposed to look like. From what I found it could be almost anything. :idunno:

 

[LRB]

Using the term "trade knives", would also include folding knives. It seems folder blades turn up more in digs than even scalper blades. Of course the French never called their fixed blade knives scalpers, too crass for their delicate language, but the English used that term even on shipping manafests.

 

[LaBonte]

As Wick noted the French trade knives were never called scalpers - they were called boucheron's aka butcher knives. The "standard" shape was a drop point in the 6-7" range (although technically the French used a slightly different measurement called a pouce)- but there were variations.
Ken Hamilton is one student/maker who has studied them in depth and Wick makes nice version as well.
If interested in the French blade shapes let me know and I'll post some pics.
Also as Wick noted the English used the term scalper to designate one version of their trade knives, but they were originally noted as butchers. The English scalper blade of the 18th century has a trailing point aka an upswept point - later versions had a straight back.

 

[Comrade Coffin]

I would very much like some pictures of French blades, as I need to upgrade my knife collection.

 

[LRB]

Here is a shot of a few original blades

 

[crockett]

And just to be clear- those are half tangs, that is, the tang extends from the top of the handle to the bottom of the handle but it only goes half way back. The tang is rounded at the end which is confusing to some. The tang is also tapered to a thin end in back.
The handle was usually one piece with a sawn cut in the front, in to which this half tang fit and was retained by three cross pins. Nothing is etched in stone, there were also a few that had two piece handles and then the three pins will be spaced over the entire handle length.
I am told the French knives were a little thicker than the English knives however the English knives had better steel so they were just as strong.

 

[Comrade Coffin]

Thank you for that. Did they only ever have one rivet hole?

 

[LRB]

Two pins of about 1/8" dia. on French. Three pins on English of about 3/32" Dia. However, these pin specs are the most commonly found, but variations on all the specs involving trade knives, have been found. The French seem to have had less variations than the English. I would assume that their guilds had more control over the producers than did the English.

 

[LRB]

It would seem that the majority of French scalpers ran at about 1/8" in thickness, give or take a little. The English went slimmer at about 1/16", give or take. The French blades normally have a tapered tang. Right down to a near cutting edge at the rear. It is quite possible that the English did not taper their tangs, because the tang itself may have been of soft iron, forge welded to the steel blade, and needed the full thickness for strength. Examples have been found, some shown by LaBonte, that show a visable joint line. As to whether this was a common practice, or just one or two producers, I don't know. Many more French blades of the 18th c. have turned up than of the English. Until I see more proof of this being the English norm, I will continue mine with tapered tangs. Unless otherwise requested.

 

[Comrade Coffin]

Thank you for that.

Just a couple more questions before I start cutting metal and wood.

The tang tapers from the blade end to the back end, yes?

Given this taper, do the handle scales just 'pinch' the wood, or are they routed out to accomodate the tang?

 

[LRB]

The blades are tapered both forward from the tang/blade junction, and then to the rear. The slot in the one piece grip is sawn with a thin blade then sawn or filed to a V shape as best as one can do, making a snug fit in the V. The grip should be a squared blank in order to center everything. To drill the pin holes in the grip, I super glue, with a couple of small drops, the tang to the grip blank on one side, in the position I want it, then using the tang holes as guides, drill through the blank. To break it loose afterwards, I just smack it on my work bench. Then the blank can be pre-shaped and roughly finished before it is locked in by peening the pins. In shaping the blank, the sides and bottom flats taper towards the blade. Then the grip can be made oval, octagon or also, if English, diamond with narrow flats top and bottom. To be correct, the grip should overlap the tang on the bottom from 1/16" to 1/8", more or less. The grips were originally over sized, and it is theorized that they were a one size fits all, for the three basic sizes offered, so possibly on a scalper style with a larger than 7" blade, the grip may not have overlapped but little, if at all. The English drilled their tang holes low of center in order for the pins to be relatively centered in the over sized grip. The French were not so particular.

 

[crockett]

Wick- it always sort of puzzled me why the ends of the tang were rounded. It seems to me that a square end to the tang would fit more securely into the sawn cut/kerf of the handle. Do you know why the ends were round? Save material? Easier to hammer out and forge? I am assuming that when the rounded tang fit into the handle that there was a void on top and bottom in the cut area- unless some type of pocket or rebate was made in the end of the handle cut.

 

[crockett]

Wick- it always sort of puzzled me why the ends of the tang were rounded. It seems to me that a square end to the tang would fit more securely into the sawn cut/kerf of the handle. Do you know why the ends were round? Save material? Easier to hammer out and forge? I am assuming that when the rounded tang fit into the handle that there was a void on top and bottom in the cut area- unless some type of pocket or rebate was made in the end of the handle cut.

 

[LRB]

I have no idea on the rounded profile tang, but I would doubt they would bother with a recess for it since they didn't even bother to make the grip fit neat. I would suspect that since both the French and English rounded the tangs, it would have something to do with a forging short cut. I think you have noticed that at least some of the French tangs were knife edged all the way around to the blade. That's one that I cannot understand at all. Seems like that could be hazardous if a grip were to break loose while in use.