French Type C smoothbore Q'n?

[Ohio Rusty]

I'm looking at a smoothbore that is for sale. It is known and made to be a Type C smoothbore similiar the one on Track of the Wolf's website. I'm assuming this is a french made gun and I have a few questions. When we have a persona, we try to get an affordable gun that fits our persona and time period. Is a Type C and a Tulle the same gun? Would a Type C smoothbore fit into the last quarter of the 18th century for a farmer/ranger/settler in the Ohio/Kentucky area? I'm sure french guns worked their way all the way down to Virginia, but is this particular gun one that is too far out of the range or correctness for the above time period and persona?
Thanx ....
Ohio Rusty >

 

[Many Klatch]

The Type C is a good gun, but not for a farmer in the midwest in the early 1800's. That type of gun was from an earlier time and while they may have still been in use in the Canadian backwoods in your time period one of them would have been a real curiosity in your chosen time and place. You need to look at an English style fowler for what you are trying to portray. I don't know what time period you are going for, but percussion caps were available in Indiana in the 1830's and a lot of farmers had their flinters converted. A double barreled cap lock shotgun would be acceptable as well.

Many Klatch

 

[Ohio Rusty]

My persona resides in the Ohio/Kentucky area last quarter of the 18th century ..... approximately 1770 to 1812. Still in the flintlock period ......
Ohio Rusty >

 

[thewho66]

The type c is a little earlier than the time period you are looking at. the other problem is that you are now in what is considered english held territory. This is due to the french and indian war that the french lost.

 

[Many Klatch]

Well, I'd say that an English style fowler or a smooth rifle are what you need to look for in a smoothbore. As a farmer you will need to avoid inlays, fancy carvings and engravings. You might not even have a patch box. Farmers didn't have a lot of cash money then (do they ever?) and made do with plain and simple.

Many Klatch

 

[redwing]

I would think that it would be OK. The French were in that area for a very long time. They left a lot foot prints in the area of New France.
Some years ago I bought an old family gun from Southern Indiana that had been converted to a cap lock. It was an early French Trade gun.
Why would we assume all farmers were poor? This was a hardy lot of men. They were settling what would become the Bread Basket of the Nation. :hmm:

 

[Pigman]

Many Indian families assimilated into the mainstream. In my youth many "Indian" families were "French". At least that is what they said until being Indian gave them money.

A French trade gun could have been found anywhere in the Midwest.

Thanks,
Foster

 

[jdstrang]

I think you could rightly argue it to be a battlefield pickup, or a trading post bargain.

Yes, the French were gone after 1769, but some of the guns they brought in trade must have been still around, especially as the Brits during your chosen period were actively encouraging the Indians to be nettlesome to the Virginia Land Company settlers spreading into southern Ohio. That sort of provenance, along with its being obsolescent, would make it all the more affordable to an early settler.

 

[redwing]

They were no longer in control. They had not left many stayed. My own Grt. Gf. of that era was Major Surgoin he went on to become a land buyer in East Tenn. where a town bears his name Surgoinville, Tenn.
I am sure French arms showed up after 1800 in the mid-west. The Indians were making raids out of Canada. The Kentucky Miltia marched to Canada to stop these raids. Don't worry about using French arms in the mid-west during the 1700s. :shake:

 

[tg]

It would likley be a rather old French gun as the C type furniture dates to the 1680-1720 period or there abouts, and for the record there is not a type C or D gun these letters just are used to catagorize styles and dates of furniture on French guns, it would not be impossible for one to shoe up most anywhewre but the earlier styles might be rare at that late date, though some rather early Fremnch guns have been found converted to caplock I believe, I can't see useing on would get you tarred and feathered, it would do you well to really bone up on the early French guns via Hamilton and Bouchard so if some one wants to spar on the topic you can offer an informed defense, I "do" a persona of around 1765 and have a circa 1725-30 Fusil from the Tulle Armoury and an early Virginia smoothrifle my fusil is made to look like it has been arons but not abused I could not see making it as though it just came from the factory, as it would be 40 years old, though some frown on aging guns, they should smile it takes less muscles and energy...

 

[B. Miller]

What Comes to mind is George Rogers Clark's expedition in 1778 during the Revolutionary War. The British had small garrisons at Fort Kaskaskia, Cahokia and Vincennes that were supported by French descendants settlers/farmers, hunters and trappers. These outposts could only survive with their support. Geroge Rogers won over thier support by showing the local priest a letter from Virginia Governor Patrick Henry verifying the American alliance with the French. The French Colonials stayed after the fall of New France. The British made it easy for them only requiring they swear allegiance to the British monarchy.
So I do not believe this gun would be out of place in Kentucky during this time period.
Bruce

 

[Many Klatch]

The French gun could have existed. You could come up with a story and persona to fit the gun. The question is one that comes up often in reenacting. Should you do it. If we are reenacting to educate the public about American History, we should try to portray the average American, not some one one from far down the bell curve. On the other hand if we are reenacting to learn how our forefathers lived then we should probably be in the middle of the curve as well.

If on the other hand we really feel drawn to a particular gun, or tent or clothing style, then maybe we should let that pick our reenacting era.

Seeing someone carrying a French fusil from the F&I era while wearing clothes from 100 years later would be a little jarring. Kind of like driving a Model T to work in rush hour traffic.

Many Klatch

 

[poordevil]

Also wern't the French in Louisana till 1803 (and after)? What I mean by that is the French did not leave North America after the F-I and France continued to send trade goods to their holdings.

P.

 

[tg]

I think that the main issue is the dating of the gun, the older the gun type or style the less likely it would have survived into another era, a 1720 French fusil could have survived as shown by the surviving converions to caplock, a French fusil from 1755 would be more likely to have survived, also the number of a type of gun that were sent to the Americas is another factor to consider, and the geographic distribution of a style would infuence the chances of finding one at a particular time and place 50-60 years later, once again some research on the particular gun would be usefull in figuring the odds so to speak, but for the most part we are always told to use something earlier than or persona to be SAFE, in this case the French gun would be doable but would not likely look like it just came out of a packing crate, also a Maple stock, would be an indication that it had been restocked in the colonies, this type of situation does not have a right or wrong answer it is a matter of choice and interpretation of the available resources on these guns and their use and distribution I would not consider it to be off the wall but not a "common" thing either, but as stated above where one wishes to be on the curve is a deciding factor, there is no mandate for everyone to be in the midle of the curve this would eliminate the representation of 50% of the who, what and where of the time, it does bring with it the responsibility if asked(or even if complimented on ones gear)to explain the degree of commonality that one represents.

 

[Grenadier1758]

In eastern Missouri and western Illinois there were the descendants of the original french settlers that have remainied. As a point of fact, the French language was still taught in Missouri public schools around Old Mines until World War II. Think of places such as Prairie du Rocher, IL (Fort de Chartres), Kaskaskia, Ste. Genevieve, MO. St. Louis was predominantly a French city for a long time even when governed by Spain.

Just because the F&I war ceded the territory to the British the European people inhabiting the area were still ethnic French. There would have been a fair number of guns around from the earlier times.

 

[redwing]

So true. The question was would it have fit into the 18th century? This was the 1700s. As far as how useful a fire arm would have been 50 or 60 years later. :hmm:
My Pre 64 Mdl. 70 turned 54 this year it still works and is not out of place in the Rocky Mtns. My old saddle rifle Pre 64 94 30 WCF turned 50 this year. So a fire arms birthday still does not list it as a dead part of history. :v

 

[Ohio Rusty]

I think I agree with most that it would be a far stretch to make this gun work in the area and time of my persona. It appears the gun that is maybe the best choice would be a like a Jim Chambers Penna. Fowler or smooth rifle.
A gun like that is a $2000 gun. $900 for the gun and barrel, then another $1000 to have a builder put it together so it is correct ...... Man o' man that is alot of penny saving for something your gonna ding it, get it rained and snowed on and beat it up in the woods on hunts and treks .....
I'm focusing on .54 caliber with a long barrel. I've had both a .20 and a 12 gauge smoothbore in the past and I think the .54 would be the best of all worlds when it comes to ball weight, a reasonable flat shooting capability with a .54 ball, and still plenty of barrel for shot loads up to 1 and 1/4 ounces.
Thanx all for your responses and your time and expertise. I really appreciate it !!
Back to the drawing board ......

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

One and a quarter ounces of shot from a .54 caliber bore is way on the heavy side. I think you'd be better served by a simple English style fowler in 20 or 16 bore. Or a 20 bore smooth rifle if that's the way you are leaning. Trying to make a magnum out of a muzzleloader isn't a good idea. In the old days, when a man needed to throw a heavier shot charge, he got a bigger gun. It's still a fine idea.

 

[thewho66]

Check out Caywoods web site and see what he has to offer. You can get an english fowler in 20 or 12 gauge. They still are not cheap but the service I recieved and still get from them is great. Ive had a few questions over the last 6 months and I have e-mailed them and will normally get a replie the next day. So give them a call and ask about there product, after I ordered mine I asked for an email address because I work third shift it was easier for for me to talk to them that way. Just an idea.

John

 

[jdstrang]

Before you lay out a couple grand for an occasional piece you'd hesitate to expose to the elements, you might want to spend a buck in a phone call to the Kindigs at The Log Cabin Shop, up in Lodi:
http://www.logcabinonline.com/

It's one of the finer black powder specialty shops in the country, if not the world, and they are all over your chosen period - you should see their museum of Pennsylvania- and Ohio-built firearms! :bow:

Tell 'em what you told us, and see what they say (and what they have!). They might have the piece you want racked up on their wall, awaiting a new home...