Frizzen hardness question

[toadboy65]

I have made and own exactly one flint lock gun-
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/hand-cannon-project.121442/page-2#post-1740020And honestly have had very little hands on experience with flintlocks in general.
Anyway, the frizzen on the hand cannon is getting pretty scraped up from use, and I don't know how normal that is.
Is there a standard for hardness? I have the equipment to harden and anneal the steel with pretty fair precision, as well as the ability to test and confirm.
thanks in advance- T

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I have made and own exactly one flint lock gun-
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/hand-cannon-project.121442/page-2#post-1740020And honestly have had very little hands on experience with flintlocks in general.
Anyway, the frizzen on the hand cannon is getting pretty scraped up from use, and I don't know how normal that is.
Is there a standard for hardness? I have the equipment to harden and anneal the steel with pretty fair precision, as well as the ability to test and confirm.
thanks in advance- T

Others will chime in also, but to me if it is sparking well, it is good. You did not say if it is sparking well or not. I am assuming it is. All my frizzens show wear because the flint is actually removing steel which is the spark. When a frizzen becomes washboard, it is time to lightly grind it smooth. Grind lengthwise.

Larry

 

[Zapadach]

There are some really good videos on YouTube on how to rehardening a frizzen. Some show how they did it 200 hundred years ago.

 

[Phil Coffins]

I don’t know a rockwell number for you but a frizzen should last for quite a few strikes, years of use. I wouldn’t expect to notice wear very quickly. If you decide to reharden it I would “guess” a RC of 50 but draw the pan cover and tail that rides the spring to a softer temper, that is fileable.

 

[toadboy65]

Others will chime in also, but to me if it is sparking well, it is good. You did not say if it is sparking well or not. I am assuming it is. All my frizzens show wear because the flint is actually removing steel which is the spark. When a frizzen becomes washboard, it is time to lightly grind it smooth. Grind lengthwise.

Larry

I was going to say yes, it is sparking fine, but I cannot really back that up. It does fire fairly reliably, but I don't have anything to compare it to. It seems like there would be a sweet spot for hardness of the striking surface. It might even be worth differentially hardening it so that the portion not to be struck remains more flexible.
Or I might once again be overthinking this.
I will try to get some decent pics to post here, and perhaps that would help.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
What make is the flintlock? Below are photos of locks showing good sparking for comparison. Fire the lock in dim light to really see if it is sparking well. The locks below are all properly made and well tuned. The second photo shows a lock firing with the flint turned around so the blunt end hits the frizzen. The third is a 236 year-old English lock by one of the greatest gun makers at the time.

Notice the abundance of sparks and most are directed into the pan. You should see some wear on the frizzen because the sparks are shards of steel sheared off the frizzen by the flint. Most frizzens today are made from high carbon steel, which is then heated to bright red and quenched in oil. The frizzen is then tempered usually at 375-400 degrees for an hour or so to remove some of the brittleness caused by hardening. A good frizzen will have a Rockwell hardness of about 60. I is also wise to temper the toe and pivot arm of the frizzen to 580-600 degrees (blue) to eliminate any risk of breakage. I do this by heating the toe with a butane mini-torch until it turns purple and blue, then stop heating and it goes to blue. I spray the face (hammer) of the frizzen with water if the tempering starts to migrate up the pan. Before fooling with your frizzen, check to see how well it is sparking in dim light.

dave

 

[Vaino]

I've hardened and tempered a few frizzens and use a short length of pipe that easily accepts a frizzen and has an end cap on one end that has a few 3/16 dia holes drilled through. The frizzen is wired through the pivot hole, placed in the pipe and a Mapp Gas torch brings the frizzen to an orange/red color for a couple of minutes and then is quenched in 10W30 motor oil. The frizzen is then polished and placed in the kitchen oven @ 375 degrees for a half hour...... the resultant color is straw {60-61 RC}. The striking plate of the frizzen is then pushed into an apple and the pivot and toe areas are heated to a bright blue color. The apple or potato acts like a heat sink.

All of the frizzens I replaced were from Chambers and my kitchen oven was temp checked w/ a thermal bridge and was right on......Fred

 

[rich pierce]

It’s easy to screw things up if one attempts to get into hardening and tempering with no experience. If it’s firing there’s the risk of ruining it or even breaking it. I’ve seen a hardened frizzen dropped on the floor and it snapper like glass. I’d not try to learn these things in a forum.

 

[FlinterNick]

Assuming your frizzen is 6150 steel.

For my frizzens I’ve never had an issue hardening them with a MAPP torch on make shift brick kiln and quenched in water. The tempering part is somewhat difficult but I found it easy with a hand held mini torch, I temper the footback twice until most of the the foot and pan over are a blue. This is the easiest way to do it at home with minimal costs. The result is a frizzen that sparks well enough, however it may have to be redone at some point.

I have switched over to oven hardening At 1650 degrees, my last three frizzens hardened this way work like zippo lighters now.

 

[toadboy65]

Thanks to everyone for the careful and detailed replies. I took some images of the frizzen today-

That is after perhaps 100 firings. The lock came as a castings kit, but I cannot remember who sold it to me. However, the hardening is on me. I annealed to R60-61 on the striking surface, but I was just guessing at what it was supposed to be.
I built this one because I had always wanted one of these, to gun train the puppy, and try to learn enough about flintlocks that I can make my next one without needing to buy any parts from others.
I had originally left it pretty rough, so I could fiddle with it until I was happy with it's function. Along with getting the frizzen sorted out, I have started replacing the modern off the shelf screws and bolts with handmade ones. Probably, over the winter, I will neaten it up, do some inlay and a bit of engraving.
This is my first flintlock, but I have been making percussion and cartridge guns for a long time. I also have an exceptionally well-equipped shop, so I can heat treat pretty precisely, as long as I know what I am trying to do.
Of course, that is the issue here. What I need to do is join a club, so that I can spend time with others who have already made the normal mistakes, so I will not have to waste time reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

 

[rich pierce]

“I annealed to R60-61 on the striking surface, but I was just guessing at what it was supposed to be”. Plenty hard. Plenty.

 

[LRB]

Thanks to everyone for the careful and detailed replies. I took some images of the frizzen today-
View attachment 101287
View attachment 101288
That is after perhaps 100 firings. The lock came as a castings kit, but I cannot remember who sold it to me. However, the hardening is on me. I annealed to R60-61 on the striking surface, but I was just guessing at what it was supposed to be.
I built this one because I had always wanted one of these, to gun train the puppy, and try to learn enough about flintlocks that I can make my next one without needing to buy any parts from others.
I had originally left it pretty rough, so I could fiddle with it until I was happy with it's function. Along with getting the frizzen sorted out, I have started replacing the modern off the shelf screws and bolts with handmade ones. Probably, over the winter, I will neaten it up, do some inlay and a bit of engraving.
This is my first flintlock, but I have been making percussion and cartridge guns for a long time. I also have an exceptionally well-equipped shop, so I can heat treat pretty precisely, as long as I know what I am trying to do.
Of course, that is the issue here. What I need to do is join a club, so that I can spend time with others who have already made the normal mistakes, so I will not have to waste time reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

Just a nit pick, but you are tempering, not annealing. Annealing is the process of removing all hardness in the steel, usually done to make it softer to machine, file, or drill.

 

[toadboy65]

Yes, that is a valid observation. I tend to post at the end of the day when I am tired, and don't proofread consistently. I took the just hardened steel from the quench to a cold oven, and ramped the temperature up to the temp that the tables indicated would lower the hardness to R60-61. I held that temp for about 45 min, then shut off the oven, and allowed it to cool slowly.
So yes, tempering.
Also, I tested the steel to check the hardness. I did not want it to just snap off the first time I fired it.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Please remember my advice about tempering the toe and pivot arm at a higher temp. It will save you tears.

dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

There are some really good videos on YouTube on how to rehardening a frizzen. Some show how they did it 200 hundred years ago.

There are also some really inaccurate and lousy vids on the same subject on YT. Be cautious.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Please remember my advice about tempering the toe and pivot arm at a higher temp. It will save you tears.

dave

There are also some really inaccurate and lousy vids on the same subject on YT. Be cautious.

Yeap, there‘s a few hack video’s on YouTube.

Sometimes you’ve gota make a mistake before you can learn the proper way.

I’ve never busted a frizzen, thankfully.

some forks temper the entire frizzen and then draw back the toe and pan cover. I’ve never done this.

I always normalize the steel (anneal), let it air cool, you don’t know how hard sometimes a casting is or how the previous hardening was done. Then harden in my oven (never tried pack hardening yet), and then quench in room temp water. Draw back the toe and frizzen cover to a deep blue temper.

 

[toadboy65]

Can anyone post images of the expected wear on a normal frizzen?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is an example with over 200 years of wear although the frizzen may have a replacement sole, but it was done long ago. It had a very hard sole when it was new made, a feature common on many original locks.

Keep in mind that wear on the frizzen is not only a function of hardness but also the geometry of the lock and the angle at which the flint hits the steel.
dave

 

[JCKelly]

Bob Roller's locks always spark well. Runs in my mind he hardens the frizzens considerably softer than Rc 60-ish, maybe in the Rc 40's. Ask him

 

[45man]

Fellas, it is amazing how well the old timers did things with the poor grades of metal. Today a good frizzen is tool steel while a lot of old originals were case hardened.
There is a lot of knowledge on this topic good job.