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Frizzen not fully opening

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plains203

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Hi I purchased my first Muzzle Loader a fortnight ago and have used it a while. I have noticed that the frizzen doesn't always snap open when the flint strikes it. the flint stops on the bottom edge of the frizzen and the frizzen only half lifts. I am assuming this is not ideal and is something I should resolve. I am unsure of how to resolve it though. I don't think a longer flint is the answer but I could be wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Could be several thing. Few things to try:

1: Easiest is try a slightly longer flint. Or a thicker piece of leather, as that moves it out & raised the striking position slightly.
2: Make sure the bottom of the flint is Flat on the jaw & not cocked & it is tight in the jaw.
3: If it is a std. Siler lock, set the flint with the hammer at halfcock & the flint within 1/16" of touching the face of the closed frizzen.
4: Try a dif. flint & see if that changes it.
5: Try the flint with the bevel down. If that makes it work it usually indicates that a longer flint could be used.

:thumbsup:
 
plains203 said:
I have noticed that the frizzen doesn't always snap open when the flint strikes it. the flint stops on the bottom edge of the frizzen and the frizzen only half lifts.

It could be the frizzen screw is just too tight and it is causing it to bind at the half way point...

Another possibility could be the frizzen's foot (part that touches the frizzen spring) is too long, unless it has a roller, it can be files shorter to reduce the spring tension...
 
I had this problem with a GPR and took the frizzen apart and polished every bearing surface..worked fine after that...I may have relieved a too tight screw in doing so...Hank
 
1. remove the frizzen screw and remove the frizzen. Examine the bottom of the frizzen " heel", which makes contact with the frizzen spring. If it is rough, file and polish it smooth. Don't file off that heel! Polish the surface of the frizzen spring where the heel contacts it, mirror smooth. Then put some grease, or a good thick oil on both parts and reassemble the frizzen in its bridle. drive in the screw, but don't push it in so much that it binds the frizzen.

Use a Trigger pull gauge to measure how much pressure is being put on the frizzen before it opens. Just hook the measure's arm over the top of the frizzen when it is closed, and pull the scale forward, keeping an eye on the scale. When the friaaen pops open, remember how many oz. it shows on the scale. do this several times to get an average. Most factory frizzen springs are TOO strong, and put too much weight on the frizzen. In addtion, the way many locks are put together, it is not unusual to see rub marks on the face of the lock plate where the upper arm of the frizzen spring moves up and down. If something is rubbing against the face of the lockplate, this adds further resistance to the frizzen. And, sometimes the heel is designed wrong, so that in pushing the frizzen open, the heel actually has to compress the spring in the process. The heel should be rounded on the front side so that the furthest compressed the spring is will be at the point where the frizzen is closed, and not when you are trying to open it!

Spring tension for a frizzen needs to be no more than 3 lbs. and 2 lbs. still does the job nicely. Remember, the only job a frizzen spring does is keep the frizzen closed until the flint strikes. That's it. Nothing else. The test for a good lock is to remove the frizzen spring altogether, and then spark the frizzen. If the frizzen still sparks well and the gun fires, you generally have a good lock.

2. Most mainsprings are too hard, although that will not create the problem you are now having. It does drive an improperly mounted flint into the frizzen, gouging out a groove or several, giving the face of the frizzen a washboard affect, if not corrected. That will cause the problem you now have. So, since I don't know if this is a new gun, or how many shots you have fired, CHECK the face of the frizzen. If it has grooves in it from the flint gouging out metal, you will have to grind the face smooth again, and probably temper the frizzen again. put the frizzen on a cookie sheet in your oven, at 350 degrees and leave it at that heat for an hour. Let it cool slowly by simply turning off the oven and letting it cool down over night. That should relieve any work hardening that takes place when you grind the face smooth.

A smooth face allows the flint to SCRAPE off metal and throw them into the pan, while the frizzen is in the act of opening. Measure the angle of impact of the flint to the frizzen. Using a plastic protractor, you can buy at the grocery store in the school supply section, put the center point at the exact point where the flint strikes the closed frizzen. Set the baseline of the protractor along the bottom of the flint, and then use a straight edge, - the side of a small piece of paper works- to run a line across the arc of the protractor from the centerpoint at the point of contact, to the inside top of the frizzen. That angle should be 55-60 degrees for best performance. If it is not, then you will need to heat up the gooseneck of the cock, and bend it down to the correct angle. This is not a difficult thing to do at home, if you take your time, use a propane torch, or Map torch, make a stencil or pattern to show the existing angle of the bottom jaw of the cock, and the new angle you want to achieve. Draw an outline of the cock, including the rounded bottom, after it is removed from the lock, and the top jaw, screw and flint are removed. Draw a heavy line extending past the top of the front of the jaw on a large piece of paper. Then use the protractor to find and locate the new angle you want to change the cock to. Draw that on the drawing. Then as you bend the cock, its a simple matter of holding the cock, in pliers up against the stencil or pattern, to check to see if you have bent the cock to the correct angle, or it need more bending. Take your time, and do this right. Usually, a change of only a few degrees are needed but the improvement in function is dramatic.

3. The flint should be striking the frizzen at about 60 % of the height of the frizzen, measure up from the bottom of the frizzen. If it strikes too low, the frizzen will not flip open. If it strikes too hight, the frizzen may open, but it may also be hung up on the flint when the flint buries itself into that groove it will create. When you set the flint in the jaw, do it when the cock is set at half cock. depending on manufacture, the bottom jaw should be parallel to the top edge of the barrel when the cock is at half cock, but some are set much further back. You can't do much about that without replacing the tumbler, and you don't want to go there. Just set the flint so the front edge is about 1/16" from the face of the closed frizzen when at half cock. If the flint is strking 60-70% of the way up on the frizzen, it will open the frizzen completely when it strkes it when the lock is fired. You can run the flint out so the gab between the edge and the frizzen's face is closer, but you don't want it touching at half cock, as that could interfere with the half cock notch as a safety measure for the gun.
 
Good advice from everyone.I had the same thing happen with my gun when i started using some chert rock that i made into flints.They were of all shapes and size :haha: Sometimes id get one that did what you described but it came from the frizzen opening so fast it would snap and rebound on the flint.It would apear as the frizzen was not being forced open and the flint would stop just at the end of the[url] frizzen.In[/url] reality it was opening with so much force it would bottom out and snap back on the flint.Happens very fast and the naked eye cant catch it.After that i started trying to make my flints the same length and thickness as close as i could and have had no problems since.
I found this out when i had a flint that simply would not open the frizzen so i thought.Spring tension wasnt stiff and the frizzen opened smoothly by hand.Well i stuck my finger in between the frizzen and the spring at about half way of the frizzens normal opening cycle.
Wap,it smarted a little. :haha: I tryed it again with my finger not in there and frizzen apeared not to open.Tryedd one more time with my finger in there.Wap,ouch :haha: I found out their is a limit to what size flints can be used in a small lock :redface:
 
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Since you are new at this, if the dif size flints & positions don't work. "DO NOT" work on the lock, as most likely there is nothing wrong with it.
Everyone newbie I ever saw work on a lock made a total mess of it. In fact, most guys that have shot flintlocks for a while that work on locks screw them up, but anyway, Don't work on it.....

Take it to someone that Knows flintlocks & let him help ya. You can learn ALLOT in a day with a knowledgable person... :thumbsup: ........
 
Hey Guys
Thanks for all the advice. I will certainly be going over the lock with this information in hand. I guess the first thing to do is try thicker leather before any of the other stuff.
I guess that is the beauty of flint locks they often need a bit of tuning to get them perfect.

Cheers
 
As I shoot my flintlock I turn the flint over every 10 shots so that it self knaps. When the flint gets a little used and the bevel is up I sometimes have the same problem. Moving the rock forward in the jaws or keeping the bevel down will help.
 
Check to see that the edge of the frizzen is not rubbing against the barrel as it opens. If it is you can stone off that edge of the frizzen until the surfaces no longer make contact.

Old Salt
 
The Flint has a clear path to the frizzen and it is tight in the jaws. it strikes the frizzen evenly across the surface. It may need the extra length perhaps. It scrapes from about half way up the frizzen right to the bottom edge and then catches and the frizzen stays half closed and the flint rests evenly across the bottom edge. I will try lengthing the flint I suppose.
 
This is the biggest problem with commercial locks today and very few designs are good in this area. I do not know why the makers do not focus on this more. Most frizzen springs are badly designed at the working end, and the "cam" or "teat" is usually all wrong too. I almost always have to re-work flintlocks so they open reliably. It should not be necessary to have a flint that is of perfect length, thickness, angle of bevel, positioned just perfectly, etc, for the frizzen to fly open reliably. It should be the EXCEPTION that it does not, and there should be something obviously wrong (too short a flint, etc).

Done with my beef. On to the potatoes.
 
YOur flint needs to strike above the half way point to snap the frizzen open. About 60% of the distance from the bottom works. You may be able to do better with a longer flint. You probably will have to work on the heel of the frizzen( when you take the frizzen out of the lock and bridle, and stand it on a flat surface, it looks like a " boot ". The heel is the small stud that makes contact with the frizzen spring when the frizzen is closed. The toe is that portion at the front of the lock which curles upward, like the toes on a well worn boot.)

You need to round the curve of the heel so that the high point is at the most rearward portion of the heel as it sits in the lock. Whereas on a normal shoe or boot, wear rounds the backside of the heel, you want to round the FRONT side of the heel, so that the boot " falls" down on the ball of the boot when it is hit by the flint. When the frizzen is closed, you want the heel to be resting on the highest point of the heel on the frizzen spring. Then polish the heck out of both the heel, and the contact point on the spring arm. When you mount the frizzen back into the bridle, put a grease, or good oil on the heel and the contact spot on the spring. It should only take about 2-3 lbs. max. to open that frizzen. The gun should fire without a frizzen spring in the lock at all. The only job a frizzen spring does is keep it closed until you fire the gun.
 
A good FL shouldn't be fussy as to flint length, within reason. W/ a flint clamped, bring the cock down onto the frizzen by hand and at the same time rotate the frizzen and when the flint is just at the end of the frizzen, the frizzen either should have toggled over or is about to. Like Rich said, the relationship between the frizzen toe and frizzen spring determines the degrees of frizzen rotation at the toggle over point. When I receive a new FL the first thing I do is check when the frizzen toggles over and most will do this around 25-35 degrees. On a few FLs I've had to get the Dremel out and grind a .010-.015 cam or hump on the frizzen spring at a toggle over point of 25 degrees and that solved both the frizzen resting on the flint and the critical flint length. If your flint comes to rest at the end of the frizzen, could be the mainspring can't overcome the resistance of the frizzen which could be caused by some of the reasons mentioned previously. Too soft frizzen steel could be one reason.....Fred
 
I had some free time so I pulled the flinter apart and polished up the frizzen spring. I found it to have a very poor finish. It had a very uneven surface. I oiled it up as well and now there is no issue. I will have a look at the other suggestions as well and maybe apply them so as to get the best possible performance from it.

Thanks for all your help guys.
 
paulvallandigham said:
Use a Trigger pull gauge to measure how much pressure is being put on the frizzen before it opens. Just hook the measure's arm over the top of the frizzen when it is closed, and pull the scale forward, keeping an eye on the scale. When the frizzen pops open, remember how many oz. it shows on the scale. do this several times to get an average. Most factory frizzen springs are TOO strong, and put too much weight on the frizzen. Spring tension for a frizzen needs to be no more than 3 lbs. and 2 lbs. still does the job nicely. Remember, the only job a frizzen spring does is keep the frizzen closed until the flint strikes. That's it. Nothing else. The test for a good lock is to remove the frizzen spring altogether, and then spark the frizzen. If the frizzen still sparks well and the gun fires, you generally have a good lock.


Just what I was thinking. The strength of the Mainspring must overcome that of the frizzen spring. If the fall of the hammer isn't strong enough, you might have to relieve the frizzen spring. Follow Paul's entire post. That man must have built locks before.
 
I am a rookie at this, but in preparing my son's TC Hawken this evening (sight in day tommorrow), I had the same problem. I put a drop of oil in the pivot point, and worked it back and forth about 100 (I counted) times. I then put a longer flint in. Problem solved.

Roger
 

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