Frizzen Opinions

[coloradoclyde]

Seeking opinions about what to do with a semi worn out frizzen (other than replacement).

Should I,
A. Attempt to reharden it ?
Or,
B. Resole it ?

Would JB weld work instead of solder ?

 

[SDSmlf]

Reharden. Find a local machine shop to case garden it for you. Ask them to draw back the bottom or non sparking area. Unless you shoot a lot every day and live a long time you will not wear through a proper case hardening.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Either way would work, if adding a sole I'd stay away from JB Weld and stick with riveting and or solder, if a machine shop is not available to you or the work is beyond what you're wanting to deal with you could locate a forum member with the tooling that might be able to help.

 

[coloradoclyde]

It's a smaller frizzen, and has already been replaced so I was looking for something to tinker with. Case hardening sounds easier than resoling and riveting.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Case hardening is not that difficult and there is tons of information available to get the process right.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I guess what I was really wondering is if one way was significantly better than the other at producing maximum sparks

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I honestly don't think that one process is any better than the other, for those without the proper equipment adding a sole is gonna be easier than case hardening, far fewer steps involved and no need to worry about critical temperatures and the difference in temper between the face of the frizzen versus the cam and toe area.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

It's a smaller frizzen, and has already been replaced so I was looking for something to tinker with. Case hardening sounds easier than resoling and riveting.

Case hardening takes experience to do it well in my opinion. Case hardening has a drawback as it will eventually wear out. If this gun will have high use, I would not CH. JB weld is not the way to go on a sole. Think about using a chunk of good hacksaw blade, attached with low temp silsolder. It is simple and no damage to the frizzen if you mess up.
Good luck

 

[Adneg]

factory gun, buy a new one.

 

[rich pierce]

An experienced gunsmith I knows feels that pack case hardened frizzens spark the best. When I pack case harden I wrap frizzens and such with mild steel wire- the black stuff in rolls at Home Depot. After quenching the wire is hard and brittle as glass. That’s a lot of carbon added.

 

[tenngun]

factory gun, buy a new one.

What I was thinking. I tried case hardening one time. Third or forth shot snapped at the henge point

 

[SDSmlf]

What I was thinking. I tried case hardening one time. Third or forth shot snapped at the henge point

Sounds like your frizzen wasn’t tempered properly.

 

[Stophel]

You can't just case harden stuff willy nilly. You don't even know what type of steel it is made of.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

You can't just case harden stuff willy nilly. You don't even know what type of steel it is made of.

I've case hardened everything from Siler's to L&Rs and Caywoods (lock plates, cocks, frizzens, bridles, screws etc) to various flint strikers and have had no problems.

Back when I joined the forums (2006) Jerry Huddleston was freely sharing his case hardening techniques over on the ALR, I literally chased down every post he started or participated in concerning case hardening, copied his input and condensed his posted insight about case hardening to a single page of information, so far it's worked for me as I've yet to have a failure or warped piece, and Jerry's work tends to speak for itself.

 

[Stophel]

I've case hardened everything from Siler's to L&Rs and Caywoods (lock plates, cocks, frizzens, bridles, screws etc) to various flint strikers and have had no problems.

So have I, but I know what I'm doing (or so I tell people), and I know what kind of steel I'm working with.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

So have I, but I know what I'm doing (or so I tell people), and I know what kind of steel I'm working with.

I should know better than to assume......................

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

An experienced gunsmith I knows feels that pack case hardened frizzens spark the best.

I "feel" the same but cannot prove it.

Curious though Rich, at what point can a collection of "Long Trek Missouri Chert Flints" be considered as collectible?

Asking for a friend ...........

 

[M. De Land]

An experienced gunsmith I knows feels that pack case hardened frizzens spark the best. When I pack case harden I wrap frizzens and such with mild steel wire- the black stuff in rolls at Home Depot. After quenching the wire is hard and brittle as glass. That’s a lot of carbon added.

I agree! A proper case will not be achieved with Kasenit or any other brand of quick casing I'm aware of . What is needed is time at the proper temperature in a bone charcoal, airless environment. When I case harden rifle actions and various parts the temperature for a deep case is a bit over 1500 F. but when I want good color with exceptable case depth I throttle in back to about 1400 F for 1.5 hours and an airiated water quench. If you are oil quenching you can get a deeper case with more heat and less chance of cracking the metal but no color.
A Kas-nit job is only a few thousands deep where as a bone charcoal case at higher temperature and 1.5 hours of time will drive carbon in 3-4 times deeper than will the quick case open flame jobs.

 

[M. De Land]

I use iron wire and on parts to be cased as well and the advantage is when it drops through the quench water it holds the charcoal to the metal longer and imparts more color. The carbon mainly is coming from the bone charcoal along with the phosphates that make the colors. The wire is being quenched from all sides and because of its realative diameter and mass it is left brittle to the core. I have cased quite a few entire actions of various models of rifle and always use blocking to lesson wrapage along with sheet metal strips to hold charcoal to the surface in the quench drop. Some of these sheet metal strips have been used over and over again going through the entire cycle. I sectioned one piece of this mild steel strapping that was .040 thick and after six carbonizing cycles at 1400-1525 degrees F with a water quench the center was still ma-liable with the exterior carbon infusion approximately .010-.012 deep as best I could tell. I was surprised the core was still soft in such a thin piece of mild steel and so many casing cycles.
As an aside one soon learns that all pack case hardening involves some degree of metal warpage no matter how tightly it is braced and blocked. It may be very slight but it is always present to some degree. This is the reason 1800 style rifle actions were first soft fitted together with files and bunishers after machining and hard fitted after casing with stones and laps.

 

[JCKelly]

As has been said and/or implied, case hardening requires knowledge and experience. That experience is gained by making mistakes, i.e. ruining a few parts.
I am a metallurgist with experience since the 1960's.

Soft soldering a bandsaw blade, with the high speed steel teeth ground off, or a slice out of a round circular saw blade meant for cutting wood, is more likely to work well without surprises. If it looks good when finished, it is likely to work well.

That circular wood saw blade is likely to have about 0.70% carbon, ideal for making a frizzen. Hardness about right, too, for a flint to shave off some burning chips.