Frizzen questions

[ppb]

Flintlocks are new to me. (I'm not sure just yet, but I think I've got a handle on cap-locks...)

I am currently trying to understand the subtleties of flint locks - in particular, a Late Ketland lock.

At first, I thought the lock did not seem to make much of a spark when triggered. Looking closer, it also showed signs of the flint striking the frizzen a little too high initially - then contact the frizzen again about 1/4" - 3/8'' further into the arc of its travel - then dribble its way through the remainder of the stroke. I would mention here, that the frizzen looked like someone went after it with a chisel.

Since then, I have found and read articles regarding frizzen bounce. What I learned there was that frizzen bounce can, and most likely will, render a good flint useless by cleaving off its sharp edge at some point during the cycle. I don't think that is what is happening here, because the flints appeared not to have suffered too much. There were also a number of fixes/tweeks mentioned- some of which I have tried with serious apprehension and have only found minor improvement. I've included some images:

The first image is where I started; second, is after some fiddling around, a flint change and three or four test strikes; three, is where I'm at now, which includes reworking the face of the frizzen and another flint change (to a smaller flint)


One other thing I have learned - when it comes to flints, size matters...
Is what I'm seeing an issue - or am I making a problem where there is none.
Helpful comments and constructive criticism are welcomed.

ppb

 

[EC121]

The 2nd or 3rd pic looks about right. How does the gun shoot? If you want to experiment, try shimming the back of the flint with a toothpick or piece of wood to change the strike angle to more of a slicing motion. Then move the flint in and out to see how it works.

 

[ppb]

Thanks for your response, EC121.
I am waiting on a powder order, so it may be awhile before I know how well the gun works. The toothpick idea is clever. Hadn't thought of adjusting the flint angle that way, but it makes sense.
Thanks, again.

 

[Vaino]

None of the flints on my locks hit that high up on the frizzen......on your lock the flint bounces the frizzen back because of the direction and then the frizzen comes back and contacts the flint. ....evidenced by the gap. If the flint were shorter it would have more of a downward movement and eliminate the gap......Fred

 

[Vaino]

None of the flints on my locks hit that high up on the frizzen......on your lock the flint bounces the frizzen back because of the direction and then the frizzen comes back and contacts the flint. ....evidenced by the gap. If the flint were shorter it would have more of a downward movement and eliminate the gap......Fred

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I am waiting on a powder order, so it may be awhile before I know how well the gun works. The toothpick idea is clever. Hadn't thought of adjusting the flint angle that way, but it makes sense.
Thanks, again.

Toothpick, small wooden match body. In the military muskets we sometimes use strips of soft lead.
Also, your flint should rest against the jaw screw. No leather or lead in between. The leather or the lead often has a V notch cut away to allow the back of the flint to rest against the screw. The other way is to have two holes in the leather, and pass the jaw screw through the holes. The second method keeps the leather with the lock if your flint works loose and is lost...,

Here are two leather methods.

Here's the upper leather installed in a lock:

LD

 

[EC121]

As long as you aren't seeing the strike lines like the first pic, and the flint isn't being chipped or broken, you are probably OK. If ignition is to your satisfaction, don't worry too much about it. Each flint is a slightly(sometimes not so slight)different shape. So things never stay the same. It's part of the game.

 

[ppb]

Thanks to you all for your responses!
It's all about the flint... Should have known, huh? (duh...) For me, the two hole leather spacer suggestion might mitigate some of the awkwardness of flint replacement. My old fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.
I've included the photo that got me to thinking I might have an alignment/geometry problem.



Evidently this is not a problem.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[bigstick6017555]

For my eyes it seems frizzen is twisted, but maybe that is the way it was designed

 

[EC121]

When you look around, a lot of them are twisted. A little twist doesn't matter. I saw one that had the flint hanging out 1/4" to get square with the frizzen. I cancelled my order on that one. In this case the maker said he copied an original that was like that. So, that made it OK. Well, IMO a bad original makes a bad replica. That also happened to a well-known maker I know, but he did it right and corrected the design before selling the locks.

 

[LRB]

Thanks to you all for your responses!
It's all about the flint... Should have known, huh? (duh...) For me, the two hole leather spacer suggestion might mitigate some of the awkwardness of flint replacement. My old fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.
I've included the photo that got me to thinking I might have an alignment/geometry problem.

View attachment 87977

Evidently this is not a problem.

Thanks again, everyone.

That is not right ,and if installed as it is, the flint will rake the side of the barrel. Who is the lock maker?

 

[LRB]

For my eyes it seems frizzen is twisted, but maybe that is the way it was designed

NO! that is just not right or usable as is.

 

[EC121]

Here is a M&G Albrecht lock hammer on one of my rifles with a little twist. The lock is as fast as any I have seen and doesn't scrape the barrel. If you want a straight hammer, clamp it in a vise and heat the neck to a dull red. Twist it square and move on. Or you can pay postage both ways and let the maker heat it up and twist it for you. The end result is the same.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Here is a M&G Albrecht lock hammer on one of my rifles with a little twist. The lock is as fast as any I have seen and doesn't scrape the barrel. If you want a straight hammer, clamp it in a vise and heat the neck to a dull red. Twist it square and move on. Or you can pay postage both ways and let the maker heat it up and twist it for you. The end result is the same.

View attachment 88383

Well that sounds awfully easy!

wm

 

[EC121]

The OP said it was a Late Ketland. Jim Chambers sells them. They have a warranty. He might fix it for free. Jim doesn't make any of the locks. He lines up the castings and has 4 or 5 assemblers who do the work on piecework. I don't know who does the repair/warranty work.

 

[ppb]

If you look again at the above image you will see the lock placed on the Jorgensen clamp is plumb and square to the 1-2-3 block I used to represent a barrel flat. The lock plate bolster is snug against the block (the pan cover is not touching), the frizzen pivot screw is perpendicular to the block/ bolster, and the tail of the frizzen is in line, that is, parallel to the lockplate and the block. I can assure you that the flint does not strike the barrel. I just thought it odd that the frizzen had a twist to it and my ignorance/ lack of experience led me to ask that question.

Getting back to my original question, I'm wondering if the mainspring isn't a little too beefy for the frizzen spring to manage and therefore imparting a skipping action through the strike process. But then again, it does make spark. Still ignorant and still waiting for powder to try it all out.

Thanks,

ppb