Frizzen Tempering?

[LRB]

To temper, use your kitchen range but read the temp with an oven thermometer. Temper for at least one hour. Two is better. And temper ASAP after the hardening process. 1095 can break itself just lying on your table. Do not trust the range setting, they are seldom accurate. Your temper heat can be from 375° to 425°, but start at 375° then try in lock to see if it sparks to suit you. White sparks are the hottest but are small and burn up fast. Bright Red/red-0range sparks are larger and fewer but burn longer. Do as Dave advised and described to harden before you temper. You can add a little more strength to the frizzen if you heat cycle before doing the actual hardening. This is easily done by heating the frizzen to a bright red orange, hold for a moment or so, then let cool to where you can touch it. Repeat but at just a bright red. Let cool. Repeat at a red to dull red. What the cycling does is to make the steel grains smaller, more in number, and tighter together giving more strength to the structure. Then proceed with the hardening process as Dave described. It is really an optional process but does add a tad more insurance against breakage in use.

 

[FlinterNick]

I worked on an L&R frizzen a few months back, i cased hardened it.

There’s more than one way to do it, assuming you have minimal shop tools using a MAPP torch with an oil quench is likely the best way to avoid any cracks on critical points. A water quench is more complicated and carries risks of damage. While water can be used with good results, i don’t recommend it. A simple thing like too much moisture in the air or too much oxygen in the water could cause the heated part to imbalance and crack.

The problem I’ve found with oil hardening a 1095 part is that its very hard to get a quality hardness (Rockwell 55-60) with just a torch.

I would not temper the frizzen on a stove top range (respectfully to others who would), the flame tempering is too uncontrolled. Tempering the foot and pan cover with a butane torch until you reach a violet / blue should be a good enough temper.

The best way to ensure quality long lasting life of an L&R frizzen is to case harden it, however most folks don’t have an oven that can reach up to 1500/1600 to make this work.

In any case, I’d send the frizzen to someone who can case harden and fit the part, you’ll be more than satisfied. I’d recommend the log cabin shop.

 

[LRB]

I worked on an L&R frizzen a few months back, i cased hardened it.

There’s more than one way to do it, assuming you have minimal shop tools using a MAPP torch with an oil quench is likely the best way to avoid any cracks on critical points. A water quench is more complicated and carries risks of damage. While water can be used with good results, i don’t recommend it. A simple thing like too much moisture in the air or too much oxygen in the water could cause the heated part to imbalance and crack.

The problem I’ve found with oil hardening a 1095 part is that its very hard to get a quality hardness (Rockwell 55-60) with just a torch.

I would not temper the frizzen on a stove top range (respectfully to others who would), the flame tempering is too uncontrolled. 1095 Tempering the foot and pan cover with a butane torch until you reach a violet / blue should be a good enough temper.

The best way to ensure quality long lasting life of an L&R frizzen is to case harden it, however most folks don’t have an oven that can reach up to 1500/1600 to make this work.

In any case, I’d send the frizzen to someone who can case harden and fit the part, you’ll be more than satisfied. I’d recommend the log cabin shop.

It makes little sense to case harden 1095. It is a redundant unneeded process. A Mapp gas torch will easily heat to way over 1500/1600 on something as small as a frizzen. Dave Person can do it with a propane torch and fire bricks. Oil hardening 1095 is more dependent on the type of oil than the source of heat. For hardening no more than 1475°F is necessary or even desired. At 1500°F 1095 starts excessive grain growth which is not a plus in a finished product. Some do use products like Kasenit first to help protect against carbon loss during the main hardening, but it really isn't necessary. The amount of carbon loss in 1095 heat treat is negligible if not over cooked and is shallow on the surface, easily ground through.

 

[Grimord]

Lots of great advice here, but I have decided to send the lock off to L&R for a repair. They made the lock so they should know if the divots in the frizzen are normal or a fault in the manufacturing process. Either they will replace the frizzen, or I will have them install a new one. Thanks all for your replies.

 

[FlinterNick]

It makes little sense to case harden 1095. It is a redundant unneeded process. A Mapp gas torch will easily heat to way over 1500/1600 on something as small as a frizzen. Dave Person can do it with a propane torch and fire bricks. Oil hardening 1095 is more dependent on the type of oil than the source of heat. For hardening no more than 1475°F is necessary or even desired. At 1500°F 1095 starts excessive grain growth which is not a plus in a finished product. Some do use products like Kasenit first to help protect against carbon loss during the main hardening, but it really isn't necessary. The amount of carbon loss in 1095 heat treat is negligible if not over cooked and is shallow on the surface, easily ground through.

Not saying you can’t do it with propane and bricks and canola oil, this is the way I’d recommend someone do with fewer tools and small workshop. Some gunmakers even will use a water quench (hot water, brine, water with oil etc). with 1095 steel, which will produce a harder steel if done correctly and successfully.

There’s more than one way to get the job done, i find it most beneficial to case harden the frizzen too the desired hardness, I use a burnout oven at 1600 for 45 min in a mixture of bone and wood coal with kasenite caked on the frizzen face, in a graphite crucible with a lid. I quench the part in circulating tap water and temper back at 325 for an hour.

I stopped using a torch once i got an oven, i only use a torch for brazing soldering and welding now and I’ll use it for hardening small parts like screws, swivels etc.

The Rifle Shoppe’s instructions uses a propane torch and a water quench, i have my reservations about this method because I’ve tried it unsuccessfully on springs and frizzens, I’ve had to polish off surface cracks. Apparently it works so well for them, its been their practice for their entire generation.

 

[LRB]

The Rifle Shoppe does not use 1095 steel. They use 6150 for all frizzens and springs, 4140 for all else. 6150 is a 50% carbon chrome vanadium steel used mostly for springs. 1095 steel is very capable of reaching 67/68 Rc. when brine quenched. It will normally reach 65/66 using Parks #50 oil quench. If using warmed canola oil, you might drop a couple of Rockwell points, but it is still more than adequate for frizzens. TRS is far from the last word on heat treating or steel metallurgy. 6150 is a poor choice of steel for frizzens unless it is cased. Use 1095, no need to case. Little to no lasting advantage if any at all. IMO.

 

[FlinterNick]

The Rifle Shoppe does not use 1095 steel. They use 6150 for all frizzens and springs, 4140 for all else. 6150 is a 50% carbon chrome vanadium steel used mostly for springs. 1095 steel is very capable of reaching 67/68 Rc. when brine quenched. It will normally reach 65/66 using Parks #50 oil quench. If using warmed canola oil, you might drop a couple of Rockwell points, but it is still more than adequate for frizzens. TRS is far from the last word on heat treating or steel metallurgy. 6150 is a poor choice of steel for frizzens unless it is cased. Use 1095, no need to case. Little to no lasting advantage if any at all. IMO.

I thought 6150 was a manganese alloy steel?

Curious Why do knife makers case 1095 blades ?

 

[LRB]

I thought 6150 was a manganese alloy steel?

Curious Why do knife makers case 1095 blades ?

They don't. What made you think they do? I mistakenly typed 50% carbon. It is .50%. Manganese aids in the hardening transformation of the steel, but does not directly add hardness Most carbon steels have manganese. 1095 commonly has a low amount of it making it more difficult to get the max hardness. That is why 1095 demands a quench that takes less than one second to drop below 900° from 1475° if you require full hardness. Only brine or molten salts will fully do the job. A few others can come close enough to make a useful product however.



Material Data Sheet
AISI 6150 steel is chromium vanadium type spring steel. It’s a similar alloy steel to 5150 steel with small, but effective, vanadium addition, to import greater hardness. AISI steel 6150 has low distortion properties

Chemistry	Content(%)
Iron, Fe	97.09 – 97.72
Chromium, Cr	0.80 – 1.10
Manganese, Mn	0.7 – 0.9
Carbon, C	0.48 – 0.53
Silicon, Si	0.15 – 0.30
Vanadium, V	≥ 0.150
Sulfur, S	≤ 0.04
Phosphorous, P	≤ 0.035

 

[FlinterNick]

They don't. What made you think they do. I mistakenly typed 50% carbon. It is .50%.



Material Data Sheet
AISI 6150 steel is chromium vanadium type spring steel. It’s a similar alloy steel to 5150 steel with small, but effective, vanadium addition, to import greater hardness. AISI steel 6150 has low distortion properties

Chemistry	Content(%)
Iron, Fe	97.09 – 97.72
Chromium, Cr	0.80 – 1.10
Manganese, Mn	0.7 – 0.9
Carbon, C	0.48 – 0.53
Silicon, Si	0.15 – 0.30
Vanadium, V	≥ 0.150
Sulfur, S	≤ 0.04
Phosphorous, P	≤ 0.0

Looks like it has manganese as part of its content.

Sure, knife makers do case harden some steel blades, I’ve seen it done with stainless steels foil.

(Kaufman, knife maker)

(Fred Stutzenberger flint and steel, muzzleblast, vol 6-8). Journaled a very good demonstration on case hardening an LR Frizzen (1095 cast) and adjusting the lock’s geometry.

This is not the exact process I did, but the LR frizzen I cased for someone did produce a quality shower of sparks.

NM.

 

[LRB]

Looks like it has manganese as part of its content.

Sure, knife makers do case harden some steel blades, I’ve seen it done with stainless steels foil.

(Kaufman, knife maker)

(Fred Stutzenberger flint and steel, muzzleblast, vol 6-8). Journaled a very good demonstration on case hardening an LR Frizzen (1095 cast) and adjusting the lock’s geometry.

This is not the exact process I did, but the LR frizzen I cased for someone did produce a quality shower of sparks.

NM.

Ain't no "sure"! There may be a knifemaker somewhere out there who case hardens blades, but it is certainly not a common thing and would not be of any practical advantage. Stainless foil is used as a protective air tight sleeve when heat treating air hardening steel to prevent carbon loss, but not to add carbon. Kauffman uses ATS-34 stainless for his blades and that is an air hardening steel that benefits in heat treat by a protective air tight foil cover. He does NOT case harden his blades.

 

[LRB]

Ain't no "sure"! There may be a knifemaker somewhere out there who case hardens blades, but it is certainly not a common thing and would not be of any practical advantage. Stainless foil is used as a protective air tight sleeve when heat treating air hardening steel to prevent carbon loss, but not to add carbon. Kauffman uses ATS-34 stainless for his blades and that is an air hardening steel that benefits in heat treat by a protective air tight foil cover. He does NOT case harden his blades. I used ATS-34 for a while during the 80's. A great steel if you like stainless, and will out perform many carbon steels.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Nick when you have a high carbon through hardening steel like 1095, it will harden right through to the core. No need to case harden it except casing can add carbon to the surface that can get burned off during the hardening process. Wick knows more about heat treating steel than you and I have ever thought we learned.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Nick when you have a high carbon through hardening steel like 1095, it will harden right through to the core. No need to case harden it except casing can add carbon to the surface that can get burned off during the hardening process. Wick knows more about heat treating steel than you and I have ever thought we learned.

dave

Thanks Dave, and Thanks LRB. Its always a pleasure learning a new fact. I suppose I was convinced the case hardening worked on a 1095 frizzen because the results seemed very positive. I’ll have to give the torch hardening and oil quench a try next time a 1095 (LR or Chambers lock) finds its way in my collection.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Case hardening a cast high carbon steel frizzen can make it spark better because it can replace carbon on the surface burned away during casting. However, it is not required. Simply grinding away the surface of the frizzen very slightly after hardening and tempering will eliminate any surface skin in which carbon has been reduced. For example, when they come from the foundry, Chambers packs their frizzens, which are made of 1095 steel, in a carburizing material and heat soaks them at 1550-1600 degrees for 4-5 hours. That replaces any carbon burned away during casting. Then they let the part cool so it is annealed. They then fit, drill, and finish the frizzens finally hardening and tempering them by heating with an oxy-acetylene torch with a carburizing flame to bright red and quenching in light oil. The frizzens are then tempered to 375 degrees.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Are just the frizzens and springs in 1095? (LR and Chambers).

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is a quote from Jim Chambers. Hope this clears any confusion up about what parts are 1095 at least for Chambers locks.

"Here are the alloys we use for all of our locks:
Frizzens - 1095
Springs - 6150
Tumblers, sears and flys - 01
All other parts are 8620"

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Here is a quote from Jim Chambers. Hope this clears any confusion up about what parts are 1095 at least for Chambers locks.

"Here are the alloys we use for all of our locks:
Frizzens - 1095
Springs - 6150
Tumblers, sears and flys - 01
All other parts are 8620"

dave

Thanks Dave !