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Frizzens
- Thread starter Redcoat
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In dim light, heat evenly to a re-orange and plunge into warm motor oil or transmission fluid, which is a little better. If it does not harden,repeat, but use warm water. If it still doe not harden it will need to be half soled or case hardened.
Guest
wick....was that supposed to be "red-orange"?
Vic
Vic
I think Wick meant RED-ORANGE. That's where I would heat it to.
If your using a propane torch I would suggest holding the frizzen with some ViseGrip or equal pliers clamped on the sides of the screw hole where the screw head would be. Don't clamp in the direction that could crush or flatten the inside diameter. Also, I would not try to get this area any hotter than it will just from convection of the heat. You really don't want this area to be real hard or it will crack.
When you remove the torch heat, get the frizzen into the oil as fast as you can. You don't want to take your time or the temperature will drop and the metal will not harden.
To test for hardness after quenching, use a file you don't like because the frizzen will be about as hard as the file and can screw up a good one.
If the frizzen doesn't harden from the red-orange heat to instant quench operation it may not have enough carbon in it.
The only solution to that is to buy some Casenit and case harden the frizzen.
If your using a propane torch I would suggest holding the frizzen with some ViseGrip or equal pliers clamped on the sides of the screw hole where the screw head would be. Don't clamp in the direction that could crush or flatten the inside diameter. Also, I would not try to get this area any hotter than it will just from convection of the heat. You really don't want this area to be real hard or it will crack.
When you remove the torch heat, get the frizzen into the oil as fast as you can. You don't want to take your time or the temperature will drop and the metal will not harden.
To test for hardness after quenching, use a file you don't like because the frizzen will be about as hard as the file and can screw up a good one.
If the frizzen doesn't harden from the red-orange heat to instant quench operation it may not have enough carbon in it.
The only solution to that is to buy some Casenit and case harden the frizzen.
Guest
Deep gouges from the flint is one visible sign, also a "washboard" look could mean the frizzen is too soft.
I case hardened one (Lyman) with casenit, but I bought a new Lyman frizzen just in case I screwed it up.
Rocky Johnson
45 Cal.
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- Nov 5, 2003
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- 658
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Musketman - I read that if you are colorblind you heat til a magnet won't hold. Colorblind like the Stumpkillers fish. I belive everthing you guys & gal post except fish being colorblind been useing my home tied wet flys too long to belive that. MM you tie your own flys what do you think? Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
It depends on who you ask. here are three opinions: Yes, No and Some. I've been tying flies for 35 years and I believe size, shape and contrast is more important than color.
I think most lures are colored to attract fishermen in a sporting goods store. I've never been able to improve on the black & silver Rapala, the black Mr. Twister teeny jig, or tha gray/black/white (grizzly) Adams dry fly. Water absorbs color very quickly. Red becomes gray and yellow - white (isn't that in a Moody Blues song?) in a few feet.
I also am to understand that deer can see blue and farter into the violets (including UV) than humans.
Here are some articles.
Can fish distinguish color?
Most fish are colorblind, despite the opinion of many sportfishermen. Fish can see color shadings, reflected light, shape, and movement, which probably accounts for the acceptance or rejection of artificial lures used by fishermen.
How to Select Lure Colors for Successful Fishing
Every spring, the tackle counters of local sport shops are filled with attractive displays of the latest lures in a myriad of colors designed to capture the attention of eagler anglers, to say nothing of eager fish. Most tackle boxes are bulging with lures of every hure, and each fishing trip becomes a study of what color bait will entice the fish today. However, certain principles of vision and the behavior of light as it penetrates the water can make lure selection more scientific.
Most fish can see in color. As in people, the retina of a fish's eye contains two types of cells, rods and cones. Cones are used for day vision and are the cells used to see colors. Rods are used for night vision and cannot distinguish colors, although they can judge light intensity. The eyes of most freshwater fish contain both rods and cones, though day feeders tend to have more cones, and night feeders more rods.
In theory, then, day feeders like bass, trout, and salmon are more sensitive to color than night feeders like walleyes. Studies have shown that rainbow trout and Pacific salmon have color vision similar to that of humans. They can distinguish complementary colors and up to 24 spectral hues. Other studies have shown that brown trout are capable of sharply focusing on near and far objects at the same time and that they can clearly see different colors at different distances.
But light behaves differently in water than it does in air. The various colors of light travel at different wavelengths. The longest wavelengths are the reds, followed by oranges, yellows, greens, blues, indigos, and violets. When light travels through water, some of its energy is absorped, and the longest wavelengths are the ones absorbed first. Thus, the warmer colors fade out and gradually appear black as light penetrates the water column. Red light is almost completely absorbed within the first 15-20 feet. Orange penetrates to 30-40 feet, and yellow to 60-70 feet, while green and blue remain visible for as deep as the light penetrates.
The total amount of light also decreases with depth. At 50 feet, a yellow lure will still appear yellow, but will not appear as bright as it did at 20 feet. While red may be visible down to 15 feet in the clear water of open Lake Michigan, it may disappear within six inches of the surface in the turbid Fox River. At depths where it is nearly dark, a white or silver lure would show up better than a blue or green lure against a blue-green background of water. Products that are designed to reflect any light that strikes them, like Prism-lite, also make lures more visible.
Commercial fishermen have experimented with this principle in reverse, using it to make their nets less visible. Nets for use in very deep water have been dyed blue or green so they would blend into the background color of the water. Perch fishermen in southern Green Bay have experimented with dying their nets red, presumably because red fades out first in these shallow turbid waters.
Total light intensity is also important. On a cloudy day, colors will not penetrate as deep as they will on a sunny day. At dusk, as light intensity falls, reds are the first color to go, followed by orange, yellow, green, and blue. As total light intensity decreases, the fish's eye switches to vision with rods, and the fish is no longer able to distinguish colors. After dark, fishermen should choose between a light lure or dark one. At dawn, as light intensity increases and fish switch back to cone vision, the order is reversed, and blues, greens, yellows, oranges, and reds appear. At early dawn, some anglers are successful with a red J-lug near the surface. To fish striking from below, it shows up as a dark lure against the lightening sky. As the day gets lighter, red no longer works well, and anglers must experiment with more visible colors.
Studies on salmon have shown that their feeding behavior depends on whether they are seeing with rods or cones. During the day, salmon use cones to give them information on the hues and shades of moving prey. When prey are first located, they are stalked and eaten head first. From dusk to dark, rod vision takes over. Schools of prey fish break up and salmon assume a position below their prey to see them in contrast against the water surface, watch them move for a few moments, and then snap them up one by one.
Ultimately, the appeal of the lure to the fish is most important. Fish must strike the lure either to eat it or attack it. While fish may locate the general area of the bait by smell or sound, most of the fish in the Great Lakes make their final attack by sight. Fish scents and noisemakers can draw fish to the area of the lure, but before it can strike, the fish must also be able to see it. This is why lure visibility and color are important to successful fishing.
--by Lynn Frederick
OutdoorPerspective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/26/02
What do fish see?
Fish rely on sight more than any other sense
By DENNIS APRILL, Outdoors Columnist
The first time I saw a black Jig-N-Pig many years ago, I wondered what fish would go after such a silly looking thing. Years later, I watched an experienced bass angler land a good-sized largemouth bass near a Lake George dock using almost exactly the same lure. Apparently that black ball with plastic fringe looked good to the bass.
Since then I have looked at chartreuse-colored Buzz baits, white spinners and God knows what else, and thought: What are the fish that go after these lures thinking or seeing? I then decided to do some investigating to find the answers.
The search started with fish anatomy, most importantly their eyes. Like human eyes, fish eyes have a cornea, iris, lens and retina, the latter containing rods and cones. Rods are used for night vision, so night feeders like walleyes, as expected, have more rods than day feeders. Cones allow for color vision, so fish can see color in varying degrees. Salmon and rainbow trout have a highly developed color viewing system. According to Lynn Frederick of the University of Wisconsin’s Sea Grant Program, "They can distinguish complimentary colors and up to 24 spectral hues." This is why males, some who become brightly colored during the spawn, are more recognizable to females.
Seeing color is one thing, but knowing how that color stands out in water, which is much denser than air, is the next step in interpreting why fish are attracted to certain colors. That same Sea Grant study reports that various colors displace differently in water. For example, red, which has the longest color wavelength, is usually the first to disappear, being visible to only 15-20 feet in clear water and only a few inches in murky water. After red comes orange, which remains visible up to 40 feet, then yellow to 70 feet. Blue and green are visible as deep as light penetrates.
However, the deeper each color goes, the less strength it has because of light diffusion. Studies have found that in depths where light is almost absent, white and silver stand out better than even blue or green. Perhaps there is a message here for those who troll deep water for lake trout.
All this is significant because fish locate food primarily by sight. Sound and smell will attract fish, especially top of the line predators like northern pike, to an area, but the final strike is based on sight. In one study done by the University of Trent, Ontario, Canada, researchers found that muskellunge have color vision throughout the color spectrum except for blue. They can see red, orange, yellow and green. However, unlike humans who process information through the cerebral cortex, muskies do so in the optic tectal lobes of their brains, which are much less complex than mammal brains, so they must turn and face their prey before going after it.
And, like all freshwater fish, muskies have eyes with 180-degree vision placed on each side of their heads, thus giving them an overall 360-degree view of their surroundings. However, they are capable of focusing down, each eye independently, when a food source or lure is spotted.
What does all this mean? For those using lures, this may explain why certain colors are effective on certain days. In overcast weather or in turbid waters, silver or white may be better than gold or red. Ten years ago, I remember fishing the Vermont side of Lake Champlain for lake trout and salmon. I was with a party using Mooselooks and Needlefish on downriggers. While we trolled, I listened to the radio chatter and heard that copper seemed to be the color of choice that day. So we switched from silver to copper with good results. Other times, even after weighing all the constants - baitfish, lure, color, water temperature - I have come home empty handed. So, knowing what a fish can see doesn’t always make it bite.
One of the more interesting analyses of what fish see comes from Doug Hannon, the well-known "Bass Professor." His general advice for fly-fishing is, "Use small flies that emulate an abundant source of prey. They should glide quietly through the water with the least amount of ruckus. They are the most effective because that is how real prey behave underwater." Hannon goes on to add, " Small, quiet, simple flies tied in natural colors don’t give off negative cues which the fish see and sense. Sized to match available food sources, they can be presented to imitate the actual motions of real prey."
His final advice is probably the most difficult for most of us anglers to follow for we are often hooked on the latest color or shape without really knowing what our intended target fish are actually seeing. Hannon concludes, "Keep the gimmickry out of your fly designs and keep your flies effective!" Sometimes that is easier said than done.
Dennis
I think most lures are colored to attract fishermen in a sporting goods store. I've never been able to improve on the black & silver Rapala, the black Mr. Twister teeny jig, or tha gray/black/white (grizzly) Adams dry fly. Water absorbs color very quickly. Red becomes gray and yellow - white (isn't that in a Moody Blues song?) in a few feet.
I also am to understand that deer can see blue and farter into the violets (including UV) than humans.
Here are some articles.
Can fish distinguish color?
Most fish are colorblind, despite the opinion of many sportfishermen. Fish can see color shadings, reflected light, shape, and movement, which probably accounts for the acceptance or rejection of artificial lures used by fishermen.
How to Select Lure Colors for Successful Fishing
Every spring, the tackle counters of local sport shops are filled with attractive displays of the latest lures in a myriad of colors designed to capture the attention of eagler anglers, to say nothing of eager fish. Most tackle boxes are bulging with lures of every hure, and each fishing trip becomes a study of what color bait will entice the fish today. However, certain principles of vision and the behavior of light as it penetrates the water can make lure selection more scientific.
Most fish can see in color. As in people, the retina of a fish's eye contains two types of cells, rods and cones. Cones are used for day vision and are the cells used to see colors. Rods are used for night vision and cannot distinguish colors, although they can judge light intensity. The eyes of most freshwater fish contain both rods and cones, though day feeders tend to have more cones, and night feeders more rods.
In theory, then, day feeders like bass, trout, and salmon are more sensitive to color than night feeders like walleyes. Studies have shown that rainbow trout and Pacific salmon have color vision similar to that of humans. They can distinguish complementary colors and up to 24 spectral hues. Other studies have shown that brown trout are capable of sharply focusing on near and far objects at the same time and that they can clearly see different colors at different distances.
But light behaves differently in water than it does in air. The various colors of light travel at different wavelengths. The longest wavelengths are the reds, followed by oranges, yellows, greens, blues, indigos, and violets. When light travels through water, some of its energy is absorped, and the longest wavelengths are the ones absorbed first. Thus, the warmer colors fade out and gradually appear black as light penetrates the water column. Red light is almost completely absorbed within the first 15-20 feet. Orange penetrates to 30-40 feet, and yellow to 60-70 feet, while green and blue remain visible for as deep as the light penetrates.
The total amount of light also decreases with depth. At 50 feet, a yellow lure will still appear yellow, but will not appear as bright as it did at 20 feet. While red may be visible down to 15 feet in the clear water of open Lake Michigan, it may disappear within six inches of the surface in the turbid Fox River. At depths where it is nearly dark, a white or silver lure would show up better than a blue or green lure against a blue-green background of water. Products that are designed to reflect any light that strikes them, like Prism-lite, also make lures more visible.
Commercial fishermen have experimented with this principle in reverse, using it to make their nets less visible. Nets for use in very deep water have been dyed blue or green so they would blend into the background color of the water. Perch fishermen in southern Green Bay have experimented with dying their nets red, presumably because red fades out first in these shallow turbid waters.
Total light intensity is also important. On a cloudy day, colors will not penetrate as deep as they will on a sunny day. At dusk, as light intensity falls, reds are the first color to go, followed by orange, yellow, green, and blue. As total light intensity decreases, the fish's eye switches to vision with rods, and the fish is no longer able to distinguish colors. After dark, fishermen should choose between a light lure or dark one. At dawn, as light intensity increases and fish switch back to cone vision, the order is reversed, and blues, greens, yellows, oranges, and reds appear. At early dawn, some anglers are successful with a red J-lug near the surface. To fish striking from below, it shows up as a dark lure against the lightening sky. As the day gets lighter, red no longer works well, and anglers must experiment with more visible colors.
Studies on salmon have shown that their feeding behavior depends on whether they are seeing with rods or cones. During the day, salmon use cones to give them information on the hues and shades of moving prey. When prey are first located, they are stalked and eaten head first. From dusk to dark, rod vision takes over. Schools of prey fish break up and salmon assume a position below their prey to see them in contrast against the water surface, watch them move for a few moments, and then snap them up one by one.
Ultimately, the appeal of the lure to the fish is most important. Fish must strike the lure either to eat it or attack it. While fish may locate the general area of the bait by smell or sound, most of the fish in the Great Lakes make their final attack by sight. Fish scents and noisemakers can draw fish to the area of the lure, but before it can strike, the fish must also be able to see it. This is why lure visibility and color are important to successful fishing.
--by Lynn Frederick
OutdoorPerspective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/26/02
What do fish see?
Fish rely on sight more than any other sense
By DENNIS APRILL, Outdoors Columnist
The first time I saw a black Jig-N-Pig many years ago, I wondered what fish would go after such a silly looking thing. Years later, I watched an experienced bass angler land a good-sized largemouth bass near a Lake George dock using almost exactly the same lure. Apparently that black ball with plastic fringe looked good to the bass.
Since then I have looked at chartreuse-colored Buzz baits, white spinners and God knows what else, and thought: What are the fish that go after these lures thinking or seeing? I then decided to do some investigating to find the answers.
The search started with fish anatomy, most importantly their eyes. Like human eyes, fish eyes have a cornea, iris, lens and retina, the latter containing rods and cones. Rods are used for night vision, so night feeders like walleyes, as expected, have more rods than day feeders. Cones allow for color vision, so fish can see color in varying degrees. Salmon and rainbow trout have a highly developed color viewing system. According to Lynn Frederick of the University of Wisconsin’s Sea Grant Program, "They can distinguish complimentary colors and up to 24 spectral hues." This is why males, some who become brightly colored during the spawn, are more recognizable to females.
Seeing color is one thing, but knowing how that color stands out in water, which is much denser than air, is the next step in interpreting why fish are attracted to certain colors. That same Sea Grant study reports that various colors displace differently in water. For example, red, which has the longest color wavelength, is usually the first to disappear, being visible to only 15-20 feet in clear water and only a few inches in murky water. After red comes orange, which remains visible up to 40 feet, then yellow to 70 feet. Blue and green are visible as deep as light penetrates.
However, the deeper each color goes, the less strength it has because of light diffusion. Studies have found that in depths where light is almost absent, white and silver stand out better than even blue or green. Perhaps there is a message here for those who troll deep water for lake trout.
All this is significant because fish locate food primarily by sight. Sound and smell will attract fish, especially top of the line predators like northern pike, to an area, but the final strike is based on sight. In one study done by the University of Trent, Ontario, Canada, researchers found that muskellunge have color vision throughout the color spectrum except for blue. They can see red, orange, yellow and green. However, unlike humans who process information through the cerebral cortex, muskies do so in the optic tectal lobes of their brains, which are much less complex than mammal brains, so they must turn and face their prey before going after it.
And, like all freshwater fish, muskies have eyes with 180-degree vision placed on each side of their heads, thus giving them an overall 360-degree view of their surroundings. However, they are capable of focusing down, each eye independently, when a food source or lure is spotted.
What does all this mean? For those using lures, this may explain why certain colors are effective on certain days. In overcast weather or in turbid waters, silver or white may be better than gold or red. Ten years ago, I remember fishing the Vermont side of Lake Champlain for lake trout and salmon. I was with a party using Mooselooks and Needlefish on downriggers. While we trolled, I listened to the radio chatter and heard that copper seemed to be the color of choice that day. So we switched from silver to copper with good results. Other times, even after weighing all the constants - baitfish, lure, color, water temperature - I have come home empty handed. So, knowing what a fish can see doesn’t always make it bite.
One of the more interesting analyses of what fish see comes from Doug Hannon, the well-known "Bass Professor." His general advice for fly-fishing is, "Use small flies that emulate an abundant source of prey. They should glide quietly through the water with the least amount of ruckus. They are the most effective because that is how real prey behave underwater." Hannon goes on to add, " Small, quiet, simple flies tied in natural colors don’t give off negative cues which the fish see and sense. Sized to match available food sources, they can be presented to imitate the actual motions of real prey."
His final advice is probably the most difficult for most of us anglers to follow for we are often hooked on the latest color or shape without really knowing what our intended target fish are actually seeing. Hannon concludes, "Keep the gimmickry out of your fly designs and keep your flies effective!" Sometimes that is easier said than done.
Dennis
Guest
The books I've read on the subject of fish eyesight, is that they do have colour cones in their eyes, but they differ from human colour cones.
: How they see, we really don't know, but colour blind, they are not. They have the equipment to see colour.
; Most fish biologists believe fish see a 'blend' of colours, not distinct colours.
: At times, Steelhead (sea going rainbow trout) will take chartreus Jensen Eggs, but not the red Jenson salmon eggs, or orangeish Jenson stealhead coloured eggs and visa versa. These are identical size and shape.
: The same goes for flies used for steelies. Bright flies will put them down sometimes in crystal clear water, whereas dark patterns of the same size will nail them.
: How they see, we really don't know, but colour blind, they are not. They have the equipment to see colour.
; Most fish biologists believe fish see a 'blend' of colours, not distinct colours.
: At times, Steelhead (sea going rainbow trout) will take chartreus Jensen Eggs, but not the red Jenson salmon eggs, or orangeish Jenson stealhead coloured eggs and visa versa. These are identical size and shape.
: The same goes for flies used for steelies. Bright flies will put them down sometimes in crystal clear water, whereas dark patterns of the same size will nail them.
Those two points could both be attributed to contrast. Chartreuse would still appear to 'glow' in natural lighting in a foot of water while the red frequencies are almost immediately absorbed in water, especially turbid. Maybe the chartreuse dye smells better, too.
Guest
Redcoat... I guess ya needs ta let yer fish check the color of yer frizzen as yer heatin' it. Then ya will have the warm water ta dip it in right there with ya. An' cook some fish at the same time. :: :shocking:
Guest
Actually with the steelhead, I fish in 2' of water, gin clear. It is there that they can be very selective as to colour. They are someitmes on chartreuse and sometimes on red or orange- very selective at times- same water and sunshine. They can change day to day. As well, the late (large) coho in the Kitimat river are chartreuse selective, at times whether guys are buzz bombing them, or me taking them on the long rod with flies. They are a blast on a 15' doublehander. If there are Dog Salmon and you try red, you'll catch only dogs(chum salmon).
Daryl
Daryl
Rocky Johnson
45 Cal.
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- 658
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- 1
Stumpkiller I asked for that didn't I. chuckle. Thanks for the come back. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
:: In the words of Robert A. Heinlein: "Insects specialize."
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