flaming canvas
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Someone said something on one of the threads about hardening a frizzen by wrapping it in leather and baking in a tin can. How about some details?
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frizzens
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I think I saw someting on this topic earlier but can't recall where it was or what level of detail was offered. Sure would be a good thing to know. The question I have is -- how do you know your frizzen needs to be hardened? Inquiring minds want to know...
Bushwhacker
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A quick way is to use a file. If it can be cut with a file it is too soft. Unless you know exactly the type of steel you're dealing with,it's a guessing game. If it's a low carbon steel you can try case hardening it. If it's a high carbon steel you can oil harden it. Lucky for me, I'm a master machinist and run a researsh machine shop for a major university. We have all sorts heat treating facilities and hardness testers. Try the oil hardening first. You're not going to hurt it. :redthumb:
A few thoughts on hardening frizzens.
First off, most of the frizzens on well made locks are just fine as they are.
When people get a few klashes, (the sound of a flintlock flint hitting the frizzen without igniting the pan powder when it's fired) the first thing they think of is "I bet my frizzen is worn out!"
More than likely, the fault lies with the flint. Perhaps it is dull, or it moved the last time the gun was fired, or it's oily, or fouled. Perhaps the priming is damp (or wet), or perhaps the prime is made using crappy powder, or perhaps it was just one or two of those times when the hot sparks didn't hit enough powder to lite it.
Believe it or don't, but sometimes it is just because the guy trying to shoot the gun forgot to prime the pan??
In any case, if the frizzen once threw good sparks, it should continue to do so. There is a lot of surface area on the face of a frizzen and they usually don't wear out.
I've even heard of people firing thousands of times and going thru hundreds of flints, but the frizzen continued to work. These frizzens are usually made out of high quality "thru" hardening steel so, they do not have a "case" of high carbon steel on their faces. They are hardened all the way thru.
There are some inexpensive frizzens made from low carbon steel in the world.
Low carbon steel will not harden, and it will not make many sparks. These frizzens do require "case hardening" in order to put enough carbon into the surface so it will be hard enough to throw good sparks when it is hardened.
As Bushwhacker mentioned, if you try to file the face of the frizzen, the file shouldn't make much more than a very light scratch, if any mark at all.
If it (the surface the flint hits, not the forward surface) is soft enough to file, it needs to be case hardened.
I would suggest you either take it to a gunsmith to let him case harden it, or you use Kasenit.
Kasenit is a case hardening material which is very inexpensive and easy to use. It is not poisonous and does not give off harmfull fumes (that I know of). It can be purchased from Dixie or several other muzzleloading gun part suppliers or places like Brownells. One package will last most people a lifetime.
To use Kasenit you need a propane torch, a pair of pliers, a can to hold the quenching liquid.
PUT ON YOUR SAFETY GLASSES.
Holding the part with the pliers, heat it until it is bright red hot. Stick the part into the powdered Kasenit so the surfaces you want to harden are totally buried in it. The Kasenit will melt and adhere to the hot surfaces. You don't need to harden the area of the frizzen which covers the pan, and you don't want to harden the screw hole so don't worry if these areas are not coated with Kasenit.
Reheat the Kasenit covered part with the torch until it is bright red. Hold it in the flame, moving it just a little bit so the entire area of the frizzen is a uniform bright red. The Kasenit will seem to melt on the part. This is good.
Keep the part at this red temperature for at least 2 minutes, 4 or 5 is even better.
It doesn't hurt if after 2-5 minutes, you re insert the area into the Kasenit and get it to recoat the surface. If you do this, you will have to reheat it to the bright red color and hold it at that temperature for another 2-5 minutes.
While your holding it there, you can imagine what is happening right before your eyes. Little molecules (I spelled it right this time :: ) of carbon are actually penetrating the surface of the steel and mixing with the steel to form high carbon steel! The longer you keep it at the bright red temperature, the deeper they go. Isn't that amazing? ::
OK, Now that your pliers are getting too hot to hold, you need to quench the part.
If you screwed up and your part is REALLY a thru hardening steel (that didn't need the case) you MUST quench it in OIL! If you quench a thru hardening steel in water, it will often BREAK into pieces from the shock of cooling too fast.
For this reason I am going to suggest you quench the part in oil first.
To quench the part, while it is still bright red hot, rapidly move it over to the can of oil and drop it in. You want to do this fast! You want the part to still be red hot when it hits the oil.
When it hits the surface of the oil, the Kasenit usually breaks off of the part with a loud POP!!! sending pieces of the coating and some oil flying. (That's why your wearing the safety glasses!!). Let it cool in the oil for a while and fish it out.
Take your file and try to file the case hardened surface.
If it is to hard to file, jump to the tempering area below, or just read on so you'll know about water quenching.
If you can still file it, you have a low carbon steel part which didn't harden fully because you oil quenched it.
All is not lost. Dump out the oil and fill the can with water.
Cool off your pliers and grasp the part again.
Reheat the part to the bright red color and hold it at that temperature for at least 15 seconds (longer won't hurt it).
Now drop it into the water.
This time, I almost guarantee it is harder than a groom on his..well, we won't go there.
It will be hard! Too hard!!
Using some 600 grit black wet/dry sandpaper, lightly sand the part to remove all of the black oxides/Kasenit that is still on the part. You want it fairly shiny on the surface the flint hits.
Tell your wife your not going to hurt her oven in any way, but you reeeeeeeely need to use it. Promise her that if you break it, you will take her to dinner ::
Now, set the oven to 450-470 degrees F and let it heat up to temperature.
Place your frizzen on a cookie sheet and place it in the oven to bake for 20-30 minutes or until the crust is nicely browned.
Just kidding.
Just bake if for the 20-30 minutes, take the cookie sheet and the frizzen out of the oven and let it air cool to room temperature. The face of the frizzen should be a very light yellow color.
The process is done. Sandpaper it and re-blue/re-brown or just leave it as it is. :: ::
If your going to try to use up all of that Kasenit you might try hardening the heads of your guns screws and other things that Viagra won't help. If you know for sure the part is plain old low carbon steel like screws, go directly to the water quench. Do not bother with the oil quench because it won't work. (Once again, do NOT water quench most thru hardening steels unless they don't respond to the oil quench method).
As for the leather in a tin can method, it is not real effective unless you can be assured the leather (or pieces of it) are in intimate contact with the surface you wish to harden, WHILE the whole thing is heated to over 1400 degrees (bright RED hot) for a period of 10 to 15 minutes.
To do this, you really need a good pile of charcoal and a fan to blast it with and keep it up to the high temperature the process needs.
The idea of the closed can is to keep the free carbon released from the leather at this high temperature from oxidizing (burning) so it can penetrate the surface of the steel.
Because the little carbon molecules are floating around inside the can, they can penetrate areas you really don't want case hardened, like the thin walls where the screw hole is.
The big guys in industry copper plate the surfaces they don't want hardened by the free carbon, but that's not an option most of us have. This and for other reasons, I really don't recommend this method.
Spend a few dollars and buy some Kasenit. You will be glad you did. :: :: ::
First off, most of the frizzens on well made locks are just fine as they are.
When people get a few klashes, (the sound of a flintlock flint hitting the frizzen without igniting the pan powder when it's fired) the first thing they think of is "I bet my frizzen is worn out!"
More than likely, the fault lies with the flint. Perhaps it is dull, or it moved the last time the gun was fired, or it's oily, or fouled. Perhaps the priming is damp (or wet), or perhaps the prime is made using crappy powder, or perhaps it was just one or two of those times when the hot sparks didn't hit enough powder to lite it.
Believe it or don't, but sometimes it is just because the guy trying to shoot the gun forgot to prime the pan??
In any case, if the frizzen once threw good sparks, it should continue to do so. There is a lot of surface area on the face of a frizzen and they usually don't wear out.
I've even heard of people firing thousands of times and going thru hundreds of flints, but the frizzen continued to work. These frizzens are usually made out of high quality "thru" hardening steel so, they do not have a "case" of high carbon steel on their faces. They are hardened all the way thru.
There are some inexpensive frizzens made from low carbon steel in the world.
Low carbon steel will not harden, and it will not make many sparks. These frizzens do require "case hardening" in order to put enough carbon into the surface so it will be hard enough to throw good sparks when it is hardened.
As Bushwhacker mentioned, if you try to file the face of the frizzen, the file shouldn't make much more than a very light scratch, if any mark at all.
If it (the surface the flint hits, not the forward surface) is soft enough to file, it needs to be case hardened.
I would suggest you either take it to a gunsmith to let him case harden it, or you use Kasenit.
Kasenit is a case hardening material which is very inexpensive and easy to use. It is not poisonous and does not give off harmfull fumes (that I know of). It can be purchased from Dixie or several other muzzleloading gun part suppliers or places like Brownells. One package will last most people a lifetime.
To use Kasenit you need a propane torch, a pair of pliers, a can to hold the quenching liquid.
PUT ON YOUR SAFETY GLASSES.
Holding the part with the pliers, heat it until it is bright red hot. Stick the part into the powdered Kasenit so the surfaces you want to harden are totally buried in it. The Kasenit will melt and adhere to the hot surfaces. You don't need to harden the area of the frizzen which covers the pan, and you don't want to harden the screw hole so don't worry if these areas are not coated with Kasenit.
Reheat the Kasenit covered part with the torch until it is bright red. Hold it in the flame, moving it just a little bit so the entire area of the frizzen is a uniform bright red. The Kasenit will seem to melt on the part. This is good.
Keep the part at this red temperature for at least 2 minutes, 4 or 5 is even better.
It doesn't hurt if after 2-5 minutes, you re insert the area into the Kasenit and get it to recoat the surface. If you do this, you will have to reheat it to the bright red color and hold it at that temperature for another 2-5 minutes.
While your holding it there, you can imagine what is happening right before your eyes. Little molecules (I spelled it right this time :: ) of carbon are actually penetrating the surface of the steel and mixing with the steel to form high carbon steel! The longer you keep it at the bright red temperature, the deeper they go. Isn't that amazing? ::
OK, Now that your pliers are getting too hot to hold, you need to quench the part.
If you screwed up and your part is REALLY a thru hardening steel (that didn't need the case) you MUST quench it in OIL! If you quench a thru hardening steel in water, it will often BREAK into pieces from the shock of cooling too fast.
For this reason I am going to suggest you quench the part in oil first.
To quench the part, while it is still bright red hot, rapidly move it over to the can of oil and drop it in. You want to do this fast! You want the part to still be red hot when it hits the oil.
When it hits the surface of the oil, the Kasenit usually breaks off of the part with a loud POP!!! sending pieces of the coating and some oil flying. (That's why your wearing the safety glasses!!). Let it cool in the oil for a while and fish it out.
Take your file and try to file the case hardened surface.
If it is to hard to file, jump to the tempering area below, or just read on so you'll know about water quenching.
If you can still file it, you have a low carbon steel part which didn't harden fully because you oil quenched it.
All is not lost. Dump out the oil and fill the can with water.
Cool off your pliers and grasp the part again.
Reheat the part to the bright red color and hold it at that temperature for at least 15 seconds (longer won't hurt it).
Now drop it into the water.
This time, I almost guarantee it is harder than a groom on his..well, we won't go there.
It will be hard! Too hard!!
Using some 600 grit black wet/dry sandpaper, lightly sand the part to remove all of the black oxides/Kasenit that is still on the part. You want it fairly shiny on the surface the flint hits.
Tell your wife your not going to hurt her oven in any way, but you reeeeeeeely need to use it. Promise her that if you break it, you will take her to dinner ::
Now, set the oven to 450-470 degrees F and let it heat up to temperature.
Place your frizzen on a cookie sheet and place it in the oven to bake for 20-30 minutes or until the crust is nicely browned.
Just kidding.
Just bake if for the 20-30 minutes, take the cookie sheet and the frizzen out of the oven and let it air cool to room temperature. The face of the frizzen should be a very light yellow color.
The process is done. Sandpaper it and re-blue/re-brown or just leave it as it is. :: ::
If your going to try to use up all of that Kasenit you might try hardening the heads of your guns screws and other things that Viagra won't help. If you know for sure the part is plain old low carbon steel like screws, go directly to the water quench. Do not bother with the oil quench because it won't work. (Once again, do NOT water quench most thru hardening steels unless they don't respond to the oil quench method).
As for the leather in a tin can method, it is not real effective unless you can be assured the leather (or pieces of it) are in intimate contact with the surface you wish to harden, WHILE the whole thing is heated to over 1400 degrees (bright RED hot) for a period of 10 to 15 minutes.
To do this, you really need a good pile of charcoal and a fan to blast it with and keep it up to the high temperature the process needs.
The idea of the closed can is to keep the free carbon released from the leather at this high temperature from oxidizing (burning) so it can penetrate the surface of the steel.
Because the little carbon molecules are floating around inside the can, they can penetrate areas you really don't want case hardened, like the thin walls where the screw hole is.
The big guys in industry copper plate the surfaces they don't want hardened by the free carbon, but that's not an option most of us have. This and for other reasons, I really don't recommend this method.
Spend a few dollars and buy some Kasenit. You will be glad you did. :: :: ::
flaming canvas
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Well, I've already tried oil hardening to no avail. Sounds like kasenite is the way to go.
There doesn't seem to be a lock that will fit the mortise on this rifle. I talked to L&R and they told me to send them a tracing of the lock plate and mark the position of the sear. Should be able to fix me up from there. Might be the best idea.:cry:
There doesn't seem to be a lock that will fit the mortise on this rifle. I talked to L&R and they told me to send them a tracing of the lock plate and mark the position of the sear. Should be able to fix me up from there. Might be the best idea.:cry:
Before spending $100+ on a lock, I would defiantly use the Kasenit.
It only costs a few bucks. In fact, the postage and shipping will probably cost you more than the case hardening powder.
Oh, for those reading this who think "WOW! All of those NEAT COLORS!!" I'm sorry to be the one to break your bubble.
Kasenit leaves kind of a dull gray looking surface that's harder than a new groom...(Oh, I remember. We aren't going there). :: :: ::
The color case hardening process is an ART! There are so many little things the books don't tell you about it that IMO, it's not worth messing with.
It only costs a few bucks. In fact, the postage and shipping will probably cost you more than the case hardening powder.
Oh, for those reading this who think "WOW! All of those NEAT COLORS!!" I'm sorry to be the one to break your bubble.
Kasenit leaves kind of a dull gray looking surface that's harder than a new groom...(Oh, I remember. We aren't going there). :: :: ::
The color case hardening process is an ART! There are so many little things the books don't tell you about it that IMO, it's not worth messing with.
Terry Zboril
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Zonie,
:bull:eace:
You must have a better propane torch than I do, and different Kasenite instructions.
First off, a common propane torch will NOT get a frizzen to the 1500 degrees (non-magnetic stage) required for Kasenit, no matter how long you heat it.. (you will need some type of forge or heat bricks).
Secondly, Kasenit instructions say to quench in WATER, not oil.
I have never had ANY good results with Kasenit with an oil quench , regardless of carbon content of the original steel, after hundreds of water quenched Kasenit parts.
As you said, the carbon content of the steel makes a big difference, (Early Italian and Spanish frizzens were mostly cased).
Leather wrap and cooking in a can or crucible was an early method of "case hardening" wrought iron parts. I am sure that your results have varied.eace:
Regards,
Terry
:bull:
eace:You must have a better propane torch than I do, and different Kasenite instructions.
First off, a common propane torch will NOT get a frizzen to the 1500 degrees (non-magnetic stage) required for Kasenit, no matter how long you heat it.. (you will need some type of forge or heat bricks).
Secondly, Kasenit instructions say to quench in WATER, not oil.
I have never had ANY good results with Kasenit with an oil quench , regardless of carbon content of the original steel, after hundreds of water quenched Kasenit parts.
As you said, the carbon content of the steel makes a big difference, (Early Italian and Spanish frizzens were mostly cased).
Leather wrap and cooking in a can or crucible was an early method of "case hardening" wrought iron parts. I am sure that your results have varied.
eace:Regards,
Terry
flaming canvas
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Propane won't get it that hot without oxygen. MAPP gas will.
I'm looking at a new lock because I want one on the rifle. I'm tinkering with the frizzen to give myself an excuse to say I tried, i guess. I'm such a baaaaaddddd boy.
I'm looking at a new lock because I want one on the rifle. I'm tinkering with the frizzen to give myself an excuse to say I tried, i guess. I'm such a baaaaaddddd boy.
Bushwhacker
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you can buy locks from L&R or Siler that have a rectangle face. Just trace around your original lock and grind and file away, Simple but not cheap.
flaming canvas
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The frizzen from a small siler from L&R may work. From the side it looks like a good enough match. Small difference in the shape at the top.
The problem with getting a file it your self setup is placement of the sear in relation to the touch hole. L&R's Manton looks the same as what I have, but the sear on that one is about 1/4 inch farther back and the trigger won't catch it from where it is set. I asked their rep about shortening the arm on the sear, but he didn't think that would be feasible. :curse: :curse: :curse:
The problem with getting a file it your self setup is placement of the sear in relation to the touch hole. L&R's Manton looks the same as what I have, but the sear on that one is about 1/4 inch farther back and the trigger won't catch it from where it is set. I asked their rep about shortening the arm on the sear, but he didn't think that would be feasible. :curse: :curse: :curse:
Flaming Canvas,
That was me. All of the old Dixie catalogs used to have the technique in the back. Haven't seen it in the more recent ones - maybe liability fears. Anyway, you wrap the frizzen in leather. Place this inside a tin can and throw it all in a wood fire with a good coal base. Leave it in for about 1/2 hour. Now the part I can't remember is whether or not the frizzen needed to be quenched in water or oil. I just cant remember. I used this method from the late '60's through the '80's , at which time I drifted away from flint (that was a mistake). It always worked. Lots and lots of sparks. This was on T/C and other "quality" locks I had purchased from Dixie. It hasn't worked on my Investarms frizzen - either because the frizzen is just no good or I'm missing that all important quenching step. I bought a bag of kasenit and am getting ready to use it in this frizzen. If anybody out there knows anything about metalurgy, help us out on the quenchingb delima.
Thanx, Muzlodr
ps, I've got an old CVA .45 flint pistol that I built in the mid '70's. I've only hardened the frizzen once, using this method. It still throws a shower of sparks!
That was me. All of the old Dixie catalogs used to have the technique in the back. Haven't seen it in the more recent ones - maybe liability fears. Anyway, you wrap the frizzen in leather. Place this inside a tin can and throw it all in a wood fire with a good coal base. Leave it in for about 1/2 hour. Now the part I can't remember is whether or not the frizzen needed to be quenched in water or oil. I just cant remember. I used this method from the late '60's through the '80's , at which time I drifted away from flint (that was a mistake). It always worked. Lots and lots of sparks. This was on T/C and other "quality" locks I had purchased from Dixie. It hasn't worked on my Investarms frizzen - either because the frizzen is just no good or I'm missing that all important quenching step. I bought a bag of kasenit and am getting ready to use it in this frizzen. If anybody out there knows anything about metalurgy, help us out on the quenchingb delima.
Thanx, Muzlodr
ps, I've got an old CVA .45 flint pistol that I built in the mid '70's. I've only hardened the frizzen once, using this method. It still throws a shower of sparks!
This page has a good artical on this subject. http://www.muzzleblasts.com/vol4no1/articles/mbo41-3.html
Also the instructions on Kasenit says you can use oil for the Quench on tool steel.
:m2c:
Also the instructions on Kasenit says you can use oil for the Quench on tool steel.
:m2c:
Guest
Terry, a mapp gas nozzle on a propane bottle will heat to blazing red/white if the frizzen is placed in good firebricks. It adds 500 degrees or more to the temp due to the injected air from the ports. Propane with propane nozle is a solf solder heat at best. I don't even like it for that & never use propane nozzles any more.
: While I prefer Mapp gas itself, I have done a load of silver brazing with the old 20lb. propane bottle hooked to the mapp gas nozzle.
: As well, for soft soldering, the mapp gass nozzle gives unlimited control of flame temp, unlike the propane pencil flame that is either full-on, or off.
: While I prefer Mapp gas itself, I have done a load of silver brazing with the old 20lb. propane bottle hooked to the mapp gas nozzle.
: As well, for soft soldering, the mapp gass nozzle gives unlimited control of flame temp, unlike the propane pencil flame that is either full-on, or off.
Just to clarify what I said.
When I used a propand torch, I actually used two of them and by holding the part where their flames met, the frizzen got to a very bright red color which my books say equates with 1450-1550 degrees F which is hot enough for Kasenit.
With carbon steels, water quenching is the only answer.
The reason I suggested first oil quenching the unknown frizzen is because if the frizzen material is made of thru hardening tool steel, the oil quench will harden it without breaking it.
That is why I said, if it doesn't harden (because it is plain carbon steel) then use water to quench it.
In other words, I was attempting to protect the user from breaking his part.
By the way, on small parts like sears and screws, one propane torch works well.
When I used a propand torch, I actually used two of them and by holding the part where their flames met, the frizzen got to a very bright red color which my books say equates with 1450-1550 degrees F which is hot enough for Kasenit.
With carbon steels, water quenching is the only answer.
The reason I suggested first oil quenching the unknown frizzen is because if the frizzen material is made of thru hardening tool steel, the oil quench will harden it without breaking it.
That is why I said, if it doesn't harden (because it is plain carbon steel) then use water to quench it.
In other words, I was attempting to protect the user from breaking his part.
By the way, on small parts like sears and screws, one propane torch works well.
Terry Zboril
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Daryl,
I understand about the bricks. In fact, I have a simple, "one brick" baby forge,(and a two bricker) with an oblong hole in the middle and the propane head coming in from the side that will get frizzen sized stuff almost "too hot", with only propane gear, and is great for making springs and such. The brick/s makes all the difference.
Questions? Can I use Mapp gas with a regular propane head?(I have a couple of bottles of Mapp, but haven't tried them yet.) If I need the "Mapp head", does that mean a whole new torch head, or just the nozzle? Sources?
The one in my baby brick is a Bernzomatic JTH7 that DOES have a reguator to control the gas.
Thanks and Regards,
Terry
I understand about the bricks. In fact, I have a simple, "one brick" baby forge,(and a two bricker) with an oblong hole in the middle and the propane head coming in from the side that will get frizzen sized stuff almost "too hot", with only propane gear, and is great for making springs and such. The brick/s makes all the difference.
Questions? Can I use Mapp gas with a regular propane head?(I have a couple of bottles of Mapp, but haven't tried them yet.) If I need the "Mapp head", does that mean a whole new torch head, or just the nozzle? Sources?
The one in my baby brick is a Bernzomatic JTH7 that DOES have a reguator to control the gas.
Thanks and Regards,
Terry
Terry Zboril
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Zonie,
Sorry, I was just a bit confused when you said "a propane torch"...
However, I think drawing back a fully hardened frizzen to "brown" or 450 F, or more, can get the frizzen too soft.
Jim Chambers recommends a 375 degree draw, on his Siler kits, for frizzens, and L.C. Rice (formerly of L&R Locks, and now maker of Rice barrels), recommends 350 degrees.(a slight yellow straw color).
Be sure to use a separate oven thermometer, as oven temps can vary considerably from the dial temp.
:results:
Regards, andeace:
Terry
Sorry, I was just a bit confused when you said "a propane torch"...
However, I think drawing back a fully hardened frizzen to "brown" or 450 F, or more, can get the frizzen too soft.
Jim Chambers recommends a 375 degree draw, on his Siler kits, for frizzens, and L.C. Rice (formerly of L&R Locks, and now maker of Rice barrels), recommends 350 degrees.(a slight yellow straw color).
Be sure to use a separate oven thermometer, as oven temps can vary considerably from the dial temp.
:results:
Regards, and
eace:Terry
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