Full Cock Trouble - L&R Replacement

[a rifleman]

Hi all. I got a L&R RPL replacement lock for my Lyman GPR this last week. Lock functioned great in the white. I took it apart to blue the externals of the lock, and now having a dickens of a time getting it to stay at full cock.

The sear fully engages the half cock notch and then sets at the edge of the full cock notch, but the hammer can be knocked forward to fire with forward pressure on the hammer. When I first put the sear spring and screw in place, with as much tension as I can, it will hold full cock properly. After a half dozen or so cycles, it starts slipping from full cock again. It seems like the sear spring needs more tension. By mimicking added pressure, sear will hold at full cock.

Am I missing something here? I have the instruction book and took pictures as I disassembled, so am positive this thing is put back together properly.

I can call L&R and see what they say, but thought I would check here first.

The lock is nice and provides some good heavy, lingering sparks in the pan, just got to get it to hold that full cock. Thanks for any help.

 

[Many Klatch]

You don't say, but I imagine that you are having this problem when the lock is in the gun. Check to see if there is something touching the sear lever. I just had that problem with my new smoothbore. I wound up having to use a Dremel to lower the trigger bar about 1/16th of an inch so that full cock was functional.

 

[LRB]

The sear should hold in full cock without a sear spring. If not, one, or both angles are not right. The nose of the sear should have full contact, but no more. Remove the sear spring, and the main spring, set the sear in full cock while using finger pressure on the hammer. If it does not hold, the angle is wrong. If it holds using hard thumb pressure on the hammer, then the problem is in the lock mortice, or the trigger bar is preventing the sear from making full contact.

 

[MikeChapin]

Just a guess because I don't know what the guts look like on that lock. If the mainspring has a stirrup attachment to the tumbler, if the part from the tumbler in on backwards it can cause problems. On their other locks it usually won't engage if this part is on backwards but sometimes will just barely engage.

If the mainspring rides on the tumbler directly forget I even mentioned it.

 

Had the exact same problem this past week. I was jawing as I was putting the lock back together and wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and tightened the sear bolt too much. The lock would hold great at half-cock, but a sneeze would set it off at full. Backed off the screw a quarter turn fixed everything. Might give that a try.

 

[DannyB]

I've got a L&R that did about the same thing. Turned out the stirrup was in backward.

 

[Harley Donaldson]

Sounds as though you have installed the fly in upside down. Turn it over and try it again

 

[a rifleman]

Hi all. I tried your suggestions - thank you. Best I could come up with is additional pressure on the sear, i.e. a tighter sear spring, will allow a proper full cock, but only for a few cycles before it is back to a weak full cock - able to dislodge with forward pressure on the hammer. So still not right, and I can't see any angle issues with the nose of the sear or the tumbler notches.

This is all outside the gun stock, so mortise is not in play here with sear arm.

Since I just got the lock, I have boxed it up and will send it back to L&R with a note in the morning and they can take a look and fix it up for me.

It's a nice lock otherwise. I especially like the ribbed jaws on the hammer, which hold flint a heck of a lot better than the original GPR jaws. And it throws a hard hammer (a bruise on my thumb now to prove that) and thick sparks. Will look forward to shooting that new lock. Thanks again for the responses.

 

[J.D.]

I know someone will bash me for asking this, so what's new, but why on earth would someone buy a new gun and then replace the lock?

Wouldn't it better to save a little more and buy a quality gun with a good lock to begin with?

Buying a quality product, in the beginning, costs less to repair/replace and in aggravation.

If the lock doesn't work, return the gun for a refund, then save a little more and buy a quality gun.
J.D.

 

[a rifleman]

I didn't say the gun was new, but I do like the way the Lyman shoots, and a decent lock will give me what I want for a year round gun. Money is certainly not an issue with me and I have no desire or need for a custom rifle.

I am also the kind of guy who shoots Remington Core-Lokts out of old rifles and gets along just fine. I also don't rain on what others might like or purchase.

 

[J.D.]

It's not an issue of raining on anothers choice. It's a question of quality and economy.

The GPR rifle is a decent gun, certainly better quality than traditions or CVA, IMHO, but why go through all of the agravation and extra expense to try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

Some people are spending as much on the gun and aftermarket items for these "inexpensive" guns as they would on a good quality semi-custom gun.

In the end, they may acquire the features of higher quailty guns by haphazardly adding features found on any quality gun, and often spending more in the process. But in the end, they still have an "inexpensive" gun that will not return the price of the upgrades when it is sold.

In other words, the money is wasted on an "inexpensive" gun that becomes expensive in the long run.

J.D.

 

[Todd Rickard]

I have a rifle that needs a RPL lock. I know the value of the gun will not justify the expense of the well made lock, but I want to experience the feeling of acomplishment when I have the piece shooting well. The cost to replace the lock on a CVA or GPR is minimal... Less than a fancy dinner and a night out.... less than tickets to the big game, so why not?
The same could be said for hot rod builders- why not just buy a mercedes or Jaguar? Why take a mid priced auto and build all those expensive modifications into it??? I think it is to satisfy the builder who has different tastes.
Anyone can purchase a nice gun. Fewer folks can take one that dosn't work well and make it reliable. Fewer yet can build one from a kit and even fewer could build from scratch. Most custom builders probably started out doing fixes before they started producing quality guns of their own.
Thats my thoughts on it anyway.... I'm sure some folks disagree... and thats what makes the world go round.

 

[J.D.]

I have a rifle that needs a RPL lock. I know the value of the gun will not justify the expense of the well made lock, but I want to experience the feeling of acomplishment when I have the piece shooting well. The cost to replace the lock on a CVA or GPR is minimal... Less than a fancy dinner and a night out.... less than tickets to the big game, so why not?

L&R's replacement locks are $99 for cap, and $130 for flint. Spending $100-130 for a nice meal is a whole lot more than most folks can afford. More power to you if that is the case, but that is a lot of money for many who post here.

Not to mention that IMHO, L&R locks are OK, but not all that great. They certainly are better than the locks on the cheap guns, but, IMHO, they are not all that great either.

Every single L&R lock I have owned has required extensive tuning and polishing to get them close to being right. One in patricualar required a LOT of extra putzing to make it acceptable.

If someone wants to go to all that trouble, why not rework the lock that is on the gun?

Anyone can purchase a nice gun. Fewer folks can take one that dosn't work well and make it reliable. Fewer yet can build one from a kit and even fewer could build from scratch. Most custom builders probably started out doing fixes before they started producing quality guns of their own.

Anyone can buy a nice gun? Yes, if they save their money long enough. Some folks buy the cheap guns because they barely live beyond subsistence, and that's all they can afford at the time. IF those same folks saved an extra $10 a week, above what they can afford at any given time, in a year or so they could have enough to buy a nice gun of good quality, or at the very least, a decent kit gun. Instead they buy these cheap guns with all sorts of design flaws and generally poor quality.

Fewer folks can take one that dosn't work well and make it reliable? Really? And how does buying a replacement lock make one a gunsmith?

Rebuilding the existing lock from the ground up would be a real learning experience for anyone interested in ML guns. And Yes, I have rebuilt a few locks, so I know what an aggravation it is to work with poor quality components.

I do not have a full compliment of machine tools to do that kind of work, BTW. Just a bandsaw, files and a drillpress.

Do you want a real sense of accomplishment? Do some research and rebuild that old lock yourself, THEN you can talk about sense of accomplishment.

Many of the full time builders I have talked to began building because they were disillusioned with cheap guns. They thought they could make a better gun than they could buy, and they were right.

Anyone with a desire, a few hand tools, and the ability to read can build a rifle using better quality components than is found on cheap guns.

The moral of my post is, for the average person, it is much better to save your money and buy a nice gun that does not require a larger expense to make it reliable. Otherwise you will likely become disillusioned with it and leave the sport, or spend more on it than it will ever be worth...and often spend as much on it as the price of a reasonably good quality semi-custom gun.

I began shooting and tinkering with these guns long before L&R began making replacement locks. AI have also been in the position of working on cheap guns in an attempt to make them reliable.

My intent is to spare the members of this forum the aggravation and added, often high expense of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when dealing with these old guns.

J.D.

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings fusil,

all i can say is, 'go it washoo'. behind you 110%. a replacement lock is a good place to start. let us know how it works out..

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[Todd Rickard]

My intent is to spare the members of this forum the aggravation and added, often high expense of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when dealing with these old guns.

I'm with you here. If you only have the time and $ for one gun it pays to buy a good one first. I have several 'good' ones, so I can afford to play with the one that dosn't work well.
Heck, I just filled up the gas tank on my truck today and it cost $130 (Can)!
I didn't imply that replacing the lock would make you a gunsmith, but one has to start somewhere, and making something work well that came from the factory messed up would give me a sense of accomplishment. I would say building a ML from parts would not qualify one as a gunsmith either.
Replacing the motor in an old car won't make you a mechanic either, I guess....

 

[J.D.]

I didn't imply that replacing the lock would make you a gunsmith, but one has to start somewhere, and making something work well that came from the factory messed up would give me a sense of accomplishment. I would say building a ML from parts would not qualify one as a gunsmith either.
Replacing the motor in an old car won't make you a mechanic either, I guess....

I guess it would depend on your definition of gunsmith. An apprentice gunsmith in the 18th century had to make a masterpiece from scratch before he earned the title of Journeyman. That masterpiece was made entirely by the apprentice smith, to include forging, reaming, and rifling the barrel, forging, filing, and fitting each lock part, making all of the necessary furniture, and final assembly, including carving.

So from that definition, someone who builds a rifle from prepared parts is a gun stocker. "Simple" stocking, using the correct parts and architecture is, in and of itself, no mean feat.

As to replacing an engine in an automobile, I have rebuilt one engine and replaced a few, and I certainly do not consider myself to be a mechanic.
:v

IMHO, a real mechanic is someone who can determine the cause of a malfunction and correct that malfunction.

In addition, a real gunsmith is someone who can make new parts as needed.
J.D.

 

[a rifleman]

Hi all. So the end of this story is, I mailed the lock back to L&R on Friday last week with a note re the problem. Got the lock back in the mail today and works perfect. The tech at L&R Lock penned a personal note saying sorry about that, that they replaced the tumbler. So I guess maybe the angle of the dangle was off.

All's well that ends well. Thanks again for chewing on this one guys!

 

[J.D.]

L&R's service is top notch, however, I would prefer a lock that did not need that kind of service.

IT's kinda like a car dealer whose service center is open 24 hours a day. I don't want a car that needs that 24 hour service either. :v
J.D.