Functionality of cut agate in flintlocks

[Rifleman1776]

I have frequently gotten 100 shots from a black English flint, I never expect to do that with a cut flint.

That is exactly the opposite of my experience in similar locks.
It is a strange game indeed.

 

[ebiggs1]

All the “tongue and cheek” aside, I have no doubt you are experiencing very good performance out of the ones you use. I looked at the web site and I couldn't get anywhere or I would have ordered a few to try.
That is why I tried several other different places and why the photo shows a big difference in color. I have no idea why the color is different from different places. :hmm:
Remember I don't say they don't work, I just say they don't work well. I can get 10 strikes or so form any of them. But than they are too undependable, unpredictable to continue to use. Certainly not anywhere near what a hunter would want one. :wink:
To be completely honest I have had some Black English flints that only went 10 times or so. But by far the vast majority of them go way, way beyond that. And then, until they get too short, you can sharpen them. Not so with swan agate.

So lets see they, cost more, don't last as long and can't be sharpened. :td: Not a ringing endorsement, is it?

 

[Rifleman1776]

That is why I tried several other different places and why the photo shows a big difference in color. I have no idea why the color is different from different places.

Even Gunter's come in a variety of colors. Do not know what, if anything, that means.
Experiences vary lock to lock.

 

[Billnpatti]

In my honest opinion, when Larry Pletcher speaks, it behooves us to listen. The man has done a lot of scientifically very valid experiments on various subjects and knows whereof he speaks. When Pletch has something to say, we should be still and learn.

Having said that, let me comment on the subject at hand. My only experience with cut stones was many years ago around 1973 when I purchased my T/C Hawken flintlock. Shortly afterwards, I purchased a package of T/C cut stones for my rifle. They would not give me very many shots before they were dull. While they were sharp, they gave me adequate sparks but nothing to write home about. I quickly went back to the knapped flint and havent used the remaining cut stone to this day. They came two to a package and the second stone is still in the bottom of my range box in its original package some 39 years later.

While I hold Pletch's opinions and scientific results in the highest regard, I seriously doubt that I will ever go back to cut stones simply because of the price. Excellent knapped stones are much cheaper. I'll stick to the knapped black English flints. I would use the French knapped flints but they are more expensive and offer no real advantage over the English flints.

May I offer a tip of the hat to Pletch for his work and for sharing his findings with us. Top quality work, Pletch. :hatsoff:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

That is why I tried several other different places and why the photo shows a big difference in color. I have no idea why the color is different from different places.

Even Gunter's come in a variety of colors. Do not know what, if anything, that means.
Experiences vary lock to lock.

As in almost everything, there are variables here too. The color variations are caused by variations in trace elements present when the agate formed.

You have probably seen agate slab-cut for clock faces, coasters,etc. The color rings you see show that there was a change in trace elements as the rings formed. The crystal formation in agate is microscopic and formed more quickly than quartz crystals that form much more slowly.

Color variations then IMHO signal variations in trace minerals, which likely cause variations in hardness. (I studied this in the '60s; I think I got this straight, but it's been a long time. A geologist probably needs to approve or edit this.)

Wow. I just read Billnpatti's post after I posted this. Thanks for your comments. That was very kind.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[George T.]

Those were great posts! It's not that I don't ocassionally take a SWAG but it is obvious that thought and work as well as record keeping went into these posts! Thank's again! Geo. T.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

My experience so far with the Stifter cut flints is that I get 30 to 45 shots out of the original edge, then using the edge of my frizzen to knap the flint I get and additional 20 to 30 shots. At which point I turn the flint around and do the same thing with the other edge. This is on two new Siler locks.

By the way I had a bit of trouble ordering from Herr Stifter’s website. My Lutheran parochial school German failed me. I used Google Translate to copy the text from the website to English and got through the order pretty well.

 

[ebiggs1]

I would use the French knapped flints but they are more expensive and offer no real advantage over the English flints.

This is also true. Even if cut agate or French Amber did work better and last longer, you still need to figure if the extra performance is worth the extra cost.
The decision is not as easy with Mr. Pierces' flints because the performance is nearly equal to, sometimes better, than Black English. Plus his are less expensive. :grin:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Good Morning,
I have to confess that the cost of flint or agate has not been a part of my thinking. My choices for the JHAT article was driven soley by the performance and ease of replacing a flint during a test - if that became necessary. I'm sure the prices has gone up dramatically since the '80s when I did the work. In fact I probably don't want to know what the cost now.

I did receive permission from the NMLRA to reproduce the JHAT article on my web site:

A Study of Lock Timing - Journal of Historic Armsmaking Technology (Vol. IV)

Note that all timing trials in this article were done with Goex ffffg for priming. Currently I use Swiss Null B.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Rifleman1776]

Great tests. You are to be commended for doing this. Not meaning to be demeaning of your work, but I am not sure what practical value this has for the shooter. There were some conflicting results. One lock had both the fastest and slowest times. In some cases 2Fg primer gave a faster time than 4Fg. Neverthless, studies like this are important to the history of the avocation. And it keeps the jug going around the fire.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Great tests. You are to be commended for doing this. Not meaning to be demeaning of your work, but I am not sure what practical value this has for the shooter. There were some conflicting results. One lock had both the fastest and slowest times. In some cases 2Fg primer gave a faster time than 4Fg. Neverthless, studies like this are important to the history of the avocation. And it keeps the jug going around the fire.

It's the old story - Variables, variables, variables. In the 20+ years since doing this study, I have learned a bunch about controlling them. When Gary and I first tried this at the Seminar (1986-1987), these were the first tries at timing a flintlock that we knew of. We were overjoyed that we could actually do it. We learned a lot in those early years, and continue to learn - especially in controlling variables.

One thing we learned early on was that the more trials we did, the more consistent our data was. If you notice, I used 80 trials just pick the flint and bevel I wanted to use.

Another thing I improved on was when I timed priming powders. The biggest variable in these tests was the flint. It seems strange, but when I ignited the pan without using flints, all the flint variables disappeared. I did this for a MuzzleBlasts article in 2005 and found very consistent results. However you always have a trial or so that yields a strange number. The line, "I should have knapped the flint one shot sooner," plagues the experminter as well as the shooter."

As far as practicality goes, you are correct when looking at specifics. However, these early test do show trends that were refined as the years went on. For instance I now have a pretty decent time line for all priming powders from Swiss Null B to Goex Cannon Powder. BTW the only sub powder I timed was almost twice as slow as Goex cannon (.0800 vs .1400 seconds). Also concerning practicality, I have to confess that I was driven as much by wanting to know if I could do it. It really was fun!

Regards,
Pletch

 

[ebiggs1]

It is very early while I am reading your article, just getting coffee, so I may have missed it, but the premise of Rifleman's argument is swan agate last longer than Black English.
I say that average one compared to average one they don't. And they can't be sharpened,......easily.
So do you have a feel for how long each lasted in your testing?

 

[Rifleman1776]

premise of Rifleman's argument is swan agate last longer than Black English

:bull: You need some more coffee.
You have read enough of my posts on the subject to know I said last longer, much-much longer than English black, in one particular lock I have. Results vary with the lock involved.
However, I also state, in another lock, my much disliked Davis Jaeger, English blacks wear down faster than an ice cube under a blow torch. I don't have large sawn flints for that lock to try.
I acknowledge they are hard to sharpen. SEEM to be much harder than English black flints which I can sharpen on a diamond wheel. But they do knap.

 

[BE Wild Willy]

For the ultra-modern flintlock shooter...

 

[Larry Pletcher]

It is very early while I am reading your article, just getting coffee, so I may have missed it, but the premise of Rifleman's argument is swan agate last longer than Black English.
I say that average one compared to average one they don't. And they can't be sharpened,......easily.
So do you have a feel for how long each lasted in your testing?

I'm sorry to say that I don't have a good answer. In these early tests, I feared that knapping a sawn agate might bring in another variable. Instead, I swapped ends or used another. Because they were all the same angle and thickness, I could swap for a fresh edge rather than take a chance on bringing in another variable. So, I didn't worry about life of the agate at all. That was secondary to the test data. I did make additional use of those agates in target shooting after tests were done.
One consideration is that every agate had two working edges. But, I didn't keep track of number of strikes like I should.

The "ultra modern flint" shown here is interesting. Somewhere I have a slow motion video of one from 2009. It produced a scary amount of sparks, but ignited the priming powder about the same as any good lock. A frame by frame study allowed us to see when the powder actually ignited. We could separate the ball of sparks from the actual lignition of the prime. After seeing it in slow motion, I doubt it has a time edge over a normal setup. The sparks it produces it very impressive though. (they are illegal an any match I know of.)

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Rifleman1776]

For the ultra-modern flintlock shooter...

I have one of those. It was sent to me to do a product review test. Before I could do the test and article the guy making them went out of business. He was unable to get approval from state game commissions for use during the ml hunting seasons. I keep it as a novelty.

 

[BE Wild Willy]

Yeah, I just posted it for a chuckle and as something to lighten the mood.

 

[cynthialee]

that looks like a briliant idea, but does it work?

 

[Matt85]

that looks like a briliant idea, but does it work?

i too am curious if it works? but, i dont think i would ever actually use something like that. new fangled devices have no business in flintlocks.

-Matt

 

[cynthialee]

I think it is nifty. I like combining the new with the old. Remember how I was saying that a bic lighter striker could probably be modified to a fireing mechanism? Looks like a similar idea.