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Furbearer/varmint hunting?

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I smoked a couple coyotes last fall. One with the T/C Hawken .50,& one with the Inline .45. Got the one with the .45 in the back of the head running away. Spooked a Bald Eagle on that one. Probably fed him for the day. The coyote was mangy, so left it lay. Pahaska
 
I don't know where you did all this study on coyotes. It was not in the west. The loss to these animals is very hard on western rural econmy. For those of us living in the west the cavaliar attitude over wolves and coyotes is repulsive at best. Before you go off another dog wolf cross, not sure about kills check the toes?? Please study the data on losses to western stockmen. Be fair and look beyoned the pro-wolf propaganda posted by Bruin and Green Mtn.Boy.
In 1991 a big loss year to coyotes in 6 western states. The sheep loss alone was 300,000 head at a cost of 2.7 million dollars. I won't go over all the stats you can do that. You can check Wyoming HB 24 which will set aside $10 million appropritation per Biennium for coyote and wolf control. The cost to the state in wild life loss is not covered by this. We are taxed and fees ae taken from hunting permits to pay for this folly.I note some one said reintoduced wolves. The wolves were aready here how can you retroduce. The groups represented by some on this forum paid for and moved Canadian Grey wolves in on us in the west. The Government Dogs are given full protection and good press. You will also note these groups are also pushing to stop all varmit hunting, calling it just killing. Does this ring bell.
The next time you call some one dumb, you might check your facts. :hmm:
 
OK Im not being a smart @$$ this time but where are you getting your info.300,000 sheep in a year seems like an awfull lot.Is that in one state?
 
No as stated that was in the 6 western states. How ever some of these have few sheep. Wyoming in recent years accouts for losses above this. You will note cattle are not listed or wild life. We would not spend the millions we do just for fun. If some of you urban folks were losing jobs to critters and being taxed to support this you would cry all over the place. The losses are posted each year I used the 91' number as it was handy. We are also adding $1.00 to each brand to fight the cost of preditors.
You think this funnie and a big joke. Well Bruin laugh away, we don't.
 
Just want to know where this info comes from.If you want to change peoples minds you got to show some proof.Like I said Im not being a smart @$$ I just need to see the proof.My dad worked on a ranch in eastern Montana and said they didnt have a big problem with coyotes.Even when we lived in Kalispell the wolves werent a problem.
 
Our choice of calibers run with the .22's. I have two .222's that I have used for years for essentially instant kills without damaging the furs, and now I'm carrying a Ranch rifle in my work truck in .223. It tears a little larger hole, but it gets the job done. I am anxious to get a chance this spring to use it on a cat and see how it will work, I know it has been effective on the coyotes.

I've seen the .243 used well at long range also, but the yotes I've seen shot with it had their shoulder blades blown out through the back, so the hides are not good for fur sales. Like you say, every Tom, Dick and Harry around here is out blowin his horn trying to call in a coyote, and if that isnt bad enough, the dog hunters are in chasing them with greyhounds. They didnt get em all evidently, this morning there was a fresh steamin pile of coyote manure just off of my back step.
 
Look its great your folks visited Montana, big deal I am impressed. Don't you know how to do a search on Coyote preditor cost to Wyoming. Wyoming live stock loss to coyotes etc. Do your own searchs. You would just ask me again where it came from.
How can you not understand when we allocte over $10 Million dollars for this there is no problem.DUH. :shake:
The eastern attitude, I will never understand it :nono:
 
redwing said:
Look its great your folks visited Montana, big deal I am impressed.
The eastern attitude, I will never understand it :nono:
My family has been out west since the 1850's.We didnt "visit"montana we lived there.This aint no eastern B.S.
 
To add to what Paul mentioned about the tracks, the size of the toes causes the toenails to almost touch on the two middle toes on a coyote. Dog tracks show the toes splayed with the toenails pointing out like an open hand. The toenails on a dog look like a v. The toenails on the coyote look like ^ or an upside down v. This is very plain in their tracks as the canine tracks show the toenails.
 
redwing said:
Don't you know how to do a search
Sure do but I want to know where you got your info.Send a link and I wont question where you got your info.
 
I already mouthed off and got a topic locked.I aint gonna do it again.So Ill let y'all talk about varmints.
 
OK, fair enough. Send me you e-mail I will send you recent USDA and GAO stats. For your Info. Montana is 2nd in losses to coyotes, Texas is number one, Wyoming is 3rd.
Last year Govt. hunters in Texas killed over 16,000 coyotes, Montana over 9,000 and Wyoming 6,700. This does not count the Feds who killed some 2.7 million
preditors, of which 2.3 million were birds, the rest were coyotes for the most part. The Feds kill about one preditor every 5 minutes, didn't know that did you. They however will not let the states do these things. Its only if its on Nat'l Parks, Airports etc.
 
One of my mentors killed a wolf here years back. There was still a bounty on them then. I killed one 6 months later. The one Jim killed was about 65 pounds. They started the same, "it is just a coydog" BS then. Our biggest problem is not the coyotes these days. It is the hawks and eagles. They are protected, so you can't do anything about them. I have seen a couple of quail in the last few years. I have not seen 5 rabbits in one day for ten years. They are pests and should be shot down to very small numbers and would be if not for the crazy thoughts of those that know nothing about the real outdoors.
I eat rabbit, quail, and other wild game. Time was when just the fact that they competed for food was reason enough to keep their numbers down. Now we have all the people that think Bambi was a real deer, or that the lion king is how it is. The stupid thing is that they are allowed to vote.
 
When we first started seeing and hunting coyotes here in Ohio, we heard allot of people talking of coy-dogs. At that time, Ohio DNR, wanted us to turn in the carcass of any coyotes we killed. Tests were run and at that time, none were reported to be a cross with any dog. They then had a wildlife biologist meet with us at our gun club. He told us why it is very unlikely, due to the way coyotes breeding cycles are and the way a dogs are. Yes, they could breed, but at the time of year the pups would be born, it would not be at a time of year that the pups could/would survive. I am sorry, but this meeting with the wildlife biologist, took place years ago. I was there and heard it first hand. It is not a heard from a friend of a friend story. I can remember where the meeting was, but I don't remember the speaker.

As far as small game. In my part of Ohio, the biggest loss is not to predators, it is to loss of habitat. If you have no place to raise your young in cover and that cover gets poisoned when the young are still in the nest or nursing, they soon die off. You could remove every predator, that runs or flies and the lack of habitat or poisoning of food and habitat, will kill them off. Don't worry, we're next.
 
Luckily for me, Missouri has more forest now than when the white settlers first arrived. The main problems here are stupid management and predators when it comes to small game. The forest is being destroyed as rapidly as they can again so that may change.
 
Dave, Runner you fellows sound like hunters. I have heard the legends of Coydogs for years. I have done a good deal of hunting across the US. I have never seen one. I would like one of these Urban Experts to bring one forth. I have often thought they may be like the WerWolf.
I agree on the concept of winged preditors. Anyone who spends time out side can see it. The Prairie Grouse has suffered from these preditors. The eagles kill young Antelope and lambs as well.
The Prairie Dog is a favoite food of the eagle, but I don't belive they hurt the population any.
Prairie Dogs have been hurt by the shooting done before the end of May. The young are not on their own untill around that time. The killing of females before the young are born is leading to big losses. Western states usally do not have laws for shooting dogs as they are a range problem. I find it strange that eastern states have laws protecting coyotes. They have a lesson to learn.
 
Sorry I didn't know you then. In 1985, I had a coy-dog walk right under me as I was standing on the limb of a tree deer hunting. I could have killed him by just dropping my rifle on his head.

He had the body of a small collie, but the tail of the coyote, and most of the coyote markings, except longer hair on its back, with blonde tones. The dog was bigger than any coyote seen before or since, with a longer snout of a dog, rather than the coyote. I grew up with a border collie, and neighbors had collies. I am familiar with both breeds, and I have seen both dead coyotes( weighed one at a deer check station in 1968 in Valmeyer, Illinois for a man who thought he had shot a " wolf ") and live ones before and since. Two coyotes have crossed in front of my car in the headlights on the edges of town.

My best friend killed a feral dog that was running with a small group( probably mom and that year's pups) of coyotes. We tracked them, and hunted them, but did not get within range of them. His neighbor shot the second feral dog, and another neighbor apparently shot the mother. After that, sightings of the remaining dogs were very thin, and the stock killing stopped.
 
Coy Dog killed by dropped rifle? Well no wonder I have never seen one. Any critter that unlucky has to be rare.
I was quail hunting in the Wabash Bottoms of Ill. in 1966. Some one had killed a small coyote that had started the "Rub". The farmers were in a fizz. Every cafe we went in to we heard about the "Red Wolf". It was some where between the Invaders from Mars and the Second comming.
Well we had a real good laugh over this one.
 
The offspring of a coyote and a dog will be sterile, incapable of reproduction. Check with any (reputable) biologist on that.

As for the "eastern coyote," unfortunately it's a misnomer that has stuck since we first started seeing them in the late 1960's. I was only 11 years old the first time I saw them, and no one, virtually no one other than my brother who saw them as well (we trapped together), believed me for more than 10 years, when they were widely seen and became an indisputable fact. Today, anyone insisting that they were NOT here would be the one laughed at. Back then, it was me. I began to scour in earnest virtually everything I could find at my disosal in libraries, magazines, etc. I finally found a friend in the NH state biologists office, her name escapes me now, but she took me under her wing and gave me a wealth of information via the mail. Remember, we had no internet back then. But we sure kept the paper companies and the post office busy.

In 1969, part of what she wrote me was that it was her strong opinion that these were in fact no close relation to the "coyotes" of the west; rather, she suspected that they were in fact a distinct subspecies of the red wolf. She taught me a lot, and I've always held what she wrote in the back of my mind, and the more I learned as the years passed by, the more closely my opinions mirrored hers.

Fast-forward to a year ago -- DNA testing of the so-called "eastern coyote" did in fact point to what that good lady suspected all along: These canines are, in fact, more closely related to the red wolf than the coyotes of the west. Unfortunately, the name has stuck, and is now more indelible than our own skin pigmentation. No matter what, they'll always be called coyotes, or worse, "coy-dogs." Sure, coy-dogs are more than mere possibility, but so extraordinarily unlikely that it's not worth discussing. And as for a coy-dog to ever make it to become the alpha male, or female, that would precipitate the demise of the pack, given that, in "eastern coyote" circles, they are the only two of the pack that breed, there would be no offspring, period.

Go ahead and flame away. But I'd sure like to once, just once for a change, have a conversation on this subject without the cloud of ignorance and emotion making a slugfest of the whole thing. I know what I know. It's been nearly 40 years that I've been studying these things, and always far far ahead of the curve of so-called "conventional wisdom" that I'm frequently if not usually mocked and ridiculed for my position(s) on the subject. So you see, whether it was coyotes in the 1960's or turkeys in the late 1970's, or -- well, a whole host of other things that I've been ridiculed for and later proven right (though without any sense of having been vindicated - the folks usually come running to tell me "the news!!!" as though I'd never heard it, or that they'd never heard it from me), the plain facts are just what I've written --- coy-dogs are rare at best and cannot reproduce, and these soyote-creatures that we have are a subspecies of the red wolf. And they DO get quite large at times, though very unlikely that it's any result of interbreeding with domesticated - OR FERAL - dogs. Going wild does NOT change a dogs genetics. At least not in one, or one hundred, generations.

As for hunting them to extermination - we're not that dedicated. Studies have shown that it would take 75% losses sustained for not less than 7-10 years, depending upon pack size and carrying capacity of the land, to truly effect any long-term eradication. Problem is, what number represents 75% of a population that you cannot count? No, the only thing to do is to keep them in check and afraid of man. That brings up another point, the same which was the subject of a Cornell University study on habituation, wherein the authors made it clear that (here in the East, at least) the "coyotes" are at the last stage in their relationship with Man before putting us on their menu. This is remarkable in itself, but made even more disconcerting when viewed in light of the fact that the only other species-wide example that we have of this habit can be found in the polar bear, which routinely figures on humans as part of its prey, whether we agree to it or not.

Anyways, I'm really not sure why I even respond to these debates. They go on everywhere, they are never resolved, and emotion gets the better (and best) of nearly all involved. Fact just can't be separated from fiction. Indeed, fiction becomes fact. And perception of truth matters more than truth itself. All the same, I've laid out what facts and truth I have found, without taint or stain of emotion or ignorance, as best I can. Of course there's more - so much more! -, but --- that's for another time, I figure.
 

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